Mr. ROCHE. Do you know that the reason stated by the Public Printer before a Congressional committee is that up to a few months ago the machine was not perfect and that Mr. Kennedy, the representative of the company, agreed with him?

Mr. MACINTYRE. I point ut the fact that publications equal to this report in every way-every newspaper, or a large proportion of the newspapers, of the country-have been using it for years.

Mr. ROCHE. That is different. It must be perfect in every detail so that there shall be no delay to Congress

The CHAIRMAN. I suggest that you confine your remarks to questions. You will have your day as a witness, you know. We will never get through if we continue these discussions.

Mr. Patterson, we will hear you now.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. E. PATTERSON, OF WILKESBARRE, PA.

Mr. PATTERSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I appear before you to-day to protest against the adoption of this measure.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Please state your name and your line of business, and residence.

Mr. PATTERSON. J. E. Patterson. My business is that of business man, merchant, and manufacturer. I am here representing the Manufacturers' Association, of Wilkesbarre, J. E. Patterson & Co., of Wilkesbarre and Pittston, Pa., and the Easton Lime Company, of Easton, Pa., and the Mason Supply Company, of Easton, Pa. Mr. GOEBEL. What is your business?

Mr. PATTERSON. I am engaged in a number of different lines. My main manufacturing business is that of manufacturing window sashes, doors and blinds, and interior finish. It is very largely interior finish. Gentlemen, it looks to me as though this bill was along the line of the minority of the labor unions, who are trying to place the majority members of the labor unions, the great number of workmen outside of the labor unions, the manufacturers, and emyloyers of this country on an eight-hour basis. It is tending to that. In my opinion it is a great mistake, and it is not to the interest of the workmen; it is not to the interest of the employer; it is not to the interest of the country at large; it is not to the interest of the Government. It increases the cost of production to the Government and to the country at large. It increases the price of the material that the mechanic and the laborer must buy for his home and for his consumption.

I think it holds back the enterprising and energetic man-the man who has ability to forge ahead and become an employer, if you choose, or to take the best position among the laborers. It holds back the man who has the ability to command the greatest wages and to earn the most for his family, provided he has the privilege of hiring out to whom he pleases for such wages as he pleases, and to work such hours as he and his employer may agree upon. I believe it is better for all parties concerned that he should be allowed to do that. I have tried the experiment of running my factory different hours. Now, understand me, when I say my factory--it seems to come natural to speak in that way-I mean the factory of my firm, J. E. Patterson & Co. I have tried eight hours and I have lost money at it. I do not object to eight hours, and I do not object to six hours, if the business of the country can be carried on profitably under that system; but I think that must come by

evolution and not by law or by forcing all parties into it at once. The conditions must be right for it.

Gentlemen, I have been in business nearly fifty years. When I first started out I had the pleasure of working twelve hours a day for 564 cents. Out of that I laid by a little money, and in that way I accumulated sufficient to start in business. To-day it has come around, by evolution, largely, that the workman can get, for the time during which I then served for 564 cents, several times that sum-at least five times that sum.

How has that come about? It has not come about by reason of laws enacted by Congress. It has come about largely by the best man being able to come to the front. He is interested in making himself worth more to his employer, and in working, if necessary, an extra hour a day or whatever may be necessary to promote the interests of his employer, thereby promoting his own interest, and thereby putting himself in shape to be advanced.

No employer can afford not to recognize those qualities in a man. If a man is worth to me $2.50 a day, I can not afford to hold him down to $2 a day, and have some other man take him away from me. If he is worth more than that, I ought, being a fair man, to pay him what I can afford to, and I will pay him what I can afford to, thereby giving him a fair percentage of what he produces. If the laboring man knows that he can only have eight hours a day, if he knows that he has to work for the same price that a poorer man works for, I do not believe he will forge ahead, as he would if he had the privilege of pushing ahead and getting the wages he is entitled to.

Mr. HUGHES. Do you know of any union that limits the amount of money to be paid to a man?

Mr. PATTERSON. I know that walking delegates have been in my office and asked me to make a uniform wage for every workman. Mr. HUGHES. A uniform minimum wage?

Mr. PATTERSON. That every man should get a certain wage. They did not say I could not pay more, no; but they said I must pay a certain amount, whether the man was worth it or not. They wanted me to agree to work eight hours a day

Mr. HUGHES. Have you any men working for you now?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUGHES. Do you think they are not worth the daily wage they receive!

Mr. PATTERSON. I think they are worth it or I do not suppose I would be paying it to them, sir. I have a lot of faithful men, who have been with me, some of them, over thirty years, and some of them over twenty years. I think they have treated me fairly, and I must have treated them reasonably fairly or they would not be in my employ to-day. I heard of one of my men a few months ago saying to another workman, "I have been with Patterson so many years"-1 think it was about thirty he said. "I never asked him for a raise of wages; I never asked him to lower my wages; he has raised my wages and he has lowered them. I believe he is honorable and fair in doing it, and I have always been entirely satisfied."

If we employers treat our workmen in that way I do not think we would ever have any trouble with them. I think the question to-day rests on the complaint we hear that the employer does not give the employee a fair chance to make his wants known, or to make his com

plaints known to his employer. I believe in an employer allowing every workman, no matter how humble he may be, to have all the time he wants to explain to his employer if there is any reason why he is not treated fairly. Any man who works for me can have all the time he wants in my private office, and can have a chance to say all he wishes to; and, if he can convince me that I am not paying him fair wages, he is sure to get more.

Mr. HUGHES. You do not have much trouble with labor, do you? Mr. PATTERSON. I never had any trouble with my labor until the union came in. I have had some trouble since. I had first a boycott for eight months; next a boycott for nearly three years. In the first place, the union asked me to change my factory from ten hours-and when I say ten hours I mean during the principal running time of the year; I did sometimes run nine hours and occasionally eight hoursto eight hours. I said, "Gentlemen, if I do that I will be running out of the little money I have made and I must object to it. I can not do it. I will close my factory first." They undertook to force me into it, and a portion of my men left me. The others stuck by. But my factory has always run. It never was stopped by the union. Then came the boycott. It went on for eight months. During that time I had repeated interviews with all the leaders of the union. I do not know whether it is fair for me to tell what was said to me, but the gist of it was that they told me how to run my factory. They said, You must run eight hours a day." "Well, suppose I find that I can not run eight hours?" "It makes no difference. A, B, and C are running their factory now eight hours a day, and you will have to." "My competitors in different parts of the country are running nine, ten, and perhaps eleven hours. Can I produce the work to compete with them?” No; we do not think you can, but it does not make any difference. The union says so and you must do so." "Well, gentlemen, I can not run my factory eight hours a day."

Now, I propose that the union shall make an illustration here with my factory that shall be a fair illustration to the country of what can be done under the union rules. I am going to make to you a proposition. It may be considered in the nature of a bluff, but I do not make bluffs, and I will not stand for them. You gentlemen know me well enough to know that I will do just what I agree to. In order to give your union a chance to run a factory under union rules, I make this proposition: "Here is a well-equipped factory. It is free from all incumbrance. I will sell it to your union".

Mark the price, now, gentlemen

"I will sell it to your union for 30 cents on the dollar, for what it cost. I will deposit in bank gold enough to buy it back with. I will keep that gold ready to buy that factory back any day that your union can not make a success of it. I will keep that gold ready to buy this factory back any day you want to sell it back. I will only stipulate that you shall sell it back to me when you are ready to dispose of it, and that I shall have first chance to buy it, and at the price at which I sell it to you, allowing you for any improvements you may have put on it."

That I considered a fair offer to them. The reply was:

We can not run a factory. We do not know anything about it. We will not take your factory." "Gentlemen, if you can not run a

factory, why are you here to tell me how to run one, and to tell me that I must run it under such rules, whether it pays or not." Now, gentlemen, I think this measure that is before you is leading up to just those conditions. When that measure is passed we will some of us have to go out of business. It may be that some of us could afford to go out. Others can not. When the hours of labor, by evolution, come around where we can work eight hours, I shall be glad to welcome it. I have been a workman myself. I can run the engine, or any machine in my factory. I know just what I am doing when I put a man at work. I know if he is a good workman, and if he is not I know just how to manage to make a good workman of him if he has the ability.

The question of apprentices is spoken of here by one gentleman. To-day we have none in the real sense of the word. In our business they want us to only take one apprentice, or one boy, into the business to every five journeymen workmen. My experience under the present mode of hiring apprentices, if you choose to hire boys to learn the business or to work in your business, is this: You hire them and pay them so much a day or so much an hour. They work as long as they like, or they leave you at any hour they like.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I do not like to interrupt you, Mr. Patterson, but the Post-Office bill is up, and we must stop at 1 o'clock.

Mr. PATTERSON. I will return to finish my statement at any time the committee will set. How is it to-morrow? I will stay over until to-morrow, although it will be very inconvenient. I would like to say a few words more, and will stay over and come before you in the morning.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If you do not conclude your remarks, I think there will be no objection to your finishing them and having them printed.

Mr. PATTERSON. I prefer to come before your committee, if that is satisfactory.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. There are only two members of the committee here, the others having been called away.

Mr. PATTERSON. To-morrow, I mean.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. We could hardly fix a hearing for to

morrow.

Mr. PATTERSON. You have no hearing for to-morrow?

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. There is none set down for to-morrow. Mr. PATTERSON. Then, gentlemen, just tell me when to stop. I will only say a few words more.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I will be glad to have you continue what you have to say, and it will be put in the record of the hearings, so as to be at the disposal of the committee when the whole committee is here. Mr. PATTERSON. Very well. I may give the stenographer a few words afterwards.

I was speaking of the question of apprentices. It is almost impossible to bring apprentices up to journeymen's work. Many of the foremen who have been employed in my factory were taken in as boys, and have worked up as foremen; but I can not keep one in five of the boys of to-day in my factory until they become journeymen workmen. I may be mistaken about it, but I think one reason is because of what the union says to them. They get such notions in their heads from the unions.

I started to tell you, and then ran off from it, something of my experience with the boycott. The first boycott was settled, and it was but an entering wedge, as I consider this bill is, to bring an enforced eight-hour day to all. I made an agreement or settlement with the union. I do not think it amounted to anything. I did it more to see how small an agreement could be made to settle such a question as that boycott. 1advanced the wages of two of my men, I think, 16 to 20 cents a day on the two. I agreed to run nine hours a day when I did not have work enough to run more, but when I was crowded with work I was to run ten hours if I wanted to. That was not the kind of agreement they wanted to make. They objected to it very much; but under those conditions I agreed that I would make no distinction between union and nonunion men, and in that way we went on. We were working very harmoniously then and I had no further trouble, and I thought I had this thing settled. This was in the city of Pittston. There came into the office one day a walking delegate from the city of Wilkesbarre. He said: "Mr. Patterson, your factory is under the jurisdiction of the city of Wilkesbarre, and you must sign our rules." your rules, sir. These rules are very different from the rules under which I have agreed to work with the union in the city of Pittston." "That makes no difference. You will have to sign these rules." "Can you tell me how I can sign two sets of rules, the rules being very different, and live up to both sets?" "I can tell you that you can not do it. You can not serve two masters." "Will you please

"Let me see

advise me what I am to do under those conditions?" "Take your choice, and take the consequences. If you do not sign those rules we will make you trouble and boycott your institution. We will ruin your business."

That is what I have been up against. I did not sign the rules and they boycotted me. I went to the courts and I got an injunction on those men. We tried it out in court. You gentlemen who know anything about these things know that it cost us a good deal of money, and it cost the union a good deal. The result was that I won my case in court-injunction made permanent. Still the unions that I did not enjoin tried as far as they could, privately, to boycott me. They kept it up, and they hired a man to stand on the streets and follow my goods; they would be on a bicycle, on foot, and any way. If I had a team go out with goods they would run up alongside and ask where they were going. The driver would tell them and they would get there before the driver did, and try to stop the delivery of the goods.

Is this a free country? If this bill is leading up to that kind of freedom I want to be clear of it. I do not want that kind of freedom. I want freedom where every man has a right to work as many hours as he wants to, to hire out to whom he pleases, to leave his employer if his employer is not honorable and straightforward with him, and where the employer has a right to discharge his workman if it is not to the interest of that employer to keep him. I believe that under those conditions the workman is better off. I believe he will actually earn more money.

Mr. FURUSETH. I would like to ask one question, if you will permit me.

Mr. PATTERSON. Certainly.

Mr. FURUSETH. Do you allow a workman the right to say that he