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Mr. POLLAK. Well, I think that would probably be a reasonably good estimate. Actually there have been fewer of us and I can make that comparison fairly readily, and I certainly cannot put myself

Senator THURMOND. Did you say you want to admit to that statement ?

Mr. POLLAK. But I said what I said with deliberation and deference, and I would be glad to go back with you through the men who have been named to the Supreme Court. We could work our way backward, and see the level of

Senator THURMOND. You have been testifying a long time and we are about ready to get through, but it seems to me you made a very exaggerated statement, and it seems that your intense zeal-have you ever been called a zealot of civil rights?

Mr. POLLAK. I cannot recall anyone offering me that before.

Senator THURMOND. It seems you are showing intense zeal in that field, together with some of the other lawyers who were volunteer lawyers down there in the same field may have warped your mind a little bit on this subject.

Mr. POLLAK. Senator, I think it is right for you to apply a substantial discount to what I say in terms

Senator THURMOND. I am not trying to discount you. You have got a right to say what you want to.

Mr. POLLAK. No, no, I understand.

Senator THURMOND. But here you are trying to block a man from the Supreme Court who has a fine record, who has decided labor cases both ways, civil rights cases both ways, other cases both ways. He has had a diversity of practice. He has handed down a diversity of opinions, and I am just wondering if you really feel when you reflect on it that down in your heart you really do him justice ?

Mr. POLLAK. Senator, I acknowledge, and that is why I wanted it to appear on the record, that I happen to have in some areas of the public law very strongly held views, most particularly I believe very strongly in the enforcement, however much this is a latter-day enforcement, of the provisions of the 14th amendment which have fallen for so long into disuse. I want this committee to know that I have those constitutional biases in assessing any of my views, and yet I have come before you because my field is constitutional law. I have worked with the Court, this may sound megalomaniac on my part, but I have worked with its work ever since I graduated from law school.

My first job was law clerk to the late Justice Rutledge, so that it was my privilege to spend a year there seeing Justices at close range, hearing great lawyers argue great cases, and I thought I knew what made a Judge of the U.S. Supreme Court from what I saw of that group of distinguished men, and it is that kind of sense of critical importance of the job those men do, I am talking now about judges with some of whom I found myself frequently in very profound intellectual and philosophical disagreement, but it is in terms of the importance of their mission and the absolute indispensibility of the highest order of professional competence and constitutional insight, it is against that kind of background, Senator, that I offer you what I agree may sound like exaggerated views, but I think back to the kind of record of demonstrated achievement which judge after judge had, whether it

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was Senator Black or Senator Byrnes or Judge Cardozo or Mr. Brandeis, Governor Hughes, Judge Stone who had been Attorney General, Senator Sutherland, judge after judge were men who came to the U.S. Supreme Court capping a public career of extraordinary distinction, and that seems to me the standard which this committee is required to urge upon the Senate to uphold in this case.

Senator THURMOND. I have no more questions. I must say that even with your intense zeal in the civil rights field and your sympathy for the witnesses who testified, and basing your opinion chieflly upon what those witnesses had to say, I am a little disappointed that you would go so far as to express the strong opinions that you have about Judge Carswell.

Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You are excused.
Mr. PROCTOR. I believe you have been previously sworn. Proceed.
Senator Kennedy has some questions.

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Proctor, would you care to be seated. You appeared before the committee a few days ago, did you not, to testify? TESTIMONY OF JULIAN PROCTOR, TALLAHASSEE, FLA.—Recalled

Mr. PROCTOR. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. Pull those mikes before you.

Mr. PROCTOR. Pardon me, I would like to get a few notes here, Senator. It has been a long day and I might be able to speed up things a little bit if I have these before me.

All right, Senator.

Senator KENNEDY. I was wondering if you could review with us very briefly what happened when the municipal golf course in Tallahassee became a private golf club. Could you give us the events leading up to that transition ?

Mr. PROCTOR. Senator, yes, sir, I will do it very briefly. I would like to bring out at the very beginning that the Tallahasse Country Club was organized as a private country club back in February of 1924. It was turned over to the city of Tallahassee in August of 1955, because of financial conditions, and it was turned over to the city at a very nominal charge, because

The CHAIRMAN. You mean 1935.

Mr. PROCTOR. 1935, I beg your pardon, sir. Because of the very little interest, the few members were unable to carry the financial burden. There was a clause in the deed, when it was transferred to the city of Tallahassee, that the original country club had the right to lease the property back, should the city ever decide to lease or dispose of the property.

In September of 1952, the stockholders of the original old Tallahassee Country Club reorganized and requested the return of the club because of dissatisfaction with the operation of the club. The clubhouse itself was pretty well rundown. It was an old, wooden structure. The golf course needed improvement, and because of that dissatisfaction and the desire of those members and golfers in and around Tallahassee who wanted a new clubhouse and a new golf course.

Senator KENNEDY. When was that? That was in what year?
Mr. PROCTOR. September of 1952 when it originally began.

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Senator KENNEDY. What happened in September?

The CHAIRMAN. Let him answer the question. Did you finish your answer?

Mr. PROCTOR. That continued until February 14 of 1956. At that time the city leased the golf course back to the original Tallahasse Country Club.

Senator KENNEDY. What happened in September of 1952? Was there some kind of incorporation? Did the old stockholders get together? Was there some kind of meeting?

Mr. PROCTOR. There was a meeting of the old stockholders.
Senator KENNEDY. How many were there of them at that time?
Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know the exact number.

Senator KENNEDY. They got together and did they petition the city at that time?

Mr. PROCTOR. They got together and they discussed it with the city commission at that time, and petitioned the city to turn the club back over to them for their private operation.

Senator KENNEDY. Then you said in 1956, February 14 of 1956, it was actually transferred back to this group, is that correct?

Mr. PROCTOR. That is correct.

Senator KENNEDY. And was the group that it was transferred to in 1956 the same group of stockholders that met in 1952? Were there others who were added to that group?

Mr. PROCTOR. There were others who were added to that group, and they formed a new club. This same group combined with a group of other interested citizens, and formed the Capital City Country Club, Inc. They filed for a certificate of incorporation on April 24 of 1956.

Senator KENNEDY. As I understand it, one of those incorporators was the nominee, Judge Carswell; is that correct?

Mr. PROCTOR. One of the original subscribers was Judge Carswell. We had some 300-odd subscribers at that time..

Senator KENNEDY: Now this was an added membership over the 1952 meeting, was it not?

Mr. PROCTOR. That is correct.

Senator KENNEDY. Could you give us any idea of how many were added to it and how many were original stockholders?

Mr. PROCTOR. Original stockholders back in 1924, Senator? I do not know. It was 35 maybe.

Senator KENNEDY. The group that met in 1952 was approximately how large? Are you talking about two or three or 15 or how many?

Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know. I am talking about probably 15 to 20. They were heirs, and those members who had received this original stock.

Senator KENNEDY. And the club itself, of which the 1952 group had been stockholders, was a private country club, was it not? They had been former members or stockholders in a private country club?.

Mr. PROCTOR. Some of them were original stockholders. Others were families of original stockholders.

Senator KENNEDY. And it had been a private country club?

Mr. PROCTOR. It had been a private country club from 24 to 35, at which time the city took it over and operated it at their request, and with their cooperation.

Senator KENNEDY. Now do you have a list of the directors of the old country club and the incorporators of the new Capital City Country Club? Do you have that information available?

Mr. PROCTOR. I have. It is available and I will make it available to the committee.

Senator KENNEDY. Could it be made a part of the record ?
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, sure.
(The documents referred to appear in the appendix.)

Senator TYDINGS. Before you leave that point, as I understand it, you had several hundred subscribers when you decided to

Mr. PROCTOR. Correct.

Senator TYDINGS. And you picked from those subscribers 21 persons to use as incorporators!

Mr. PROCTOR. As subscribing incorporators, correct.

Senator TYDINGS. One of those 21 names was the name of U.S. attorney for the district of northern Florida, was it not?

Mr. PROCTOR. Judge Harrold Carswell, or Harrold Carswell, right.

Senator TYDINGS. How did you happen to pick him as one of the 21 incorporators?

Mr. PROCTOR. Senator, I cannot answer that question. It is just we took 21 out of the group. I happened to be one of the 21. Why did they pick me ?

Senator TYDINGS. Were you trying to pick prominent people in the community to show community support?

Mr. PROCTOR. Not necessarily. Many of them were prominent. I would not consider myself particularly prominent, and I happened to

Senator TYDINGS. Did you just pick them out of a hat? How did Mr. PROCTOR. No, we just picked out a group of 21.

Senator TYDINGS. You just did it at random? You did not particularly want to have a U.S. attorney's name in that group of subscribers and incorporators?

Mr. PROCTOR. No.
Senator TYDINGS. It was just happenstance?
Mr. PROCTOR. It just happened.
Senator TYDINGS. You just happened to pick him?
Mr. PROCTOR. Absolutely, right.

Senator KENNEDY. Were there any blacks who were incorporators or invited to participate?

Mr. PROCTOR. It was open to the public.

Senator KENNEDY. Were there any blacks who were asked to participate?

Mr. PROCTOR. I did not ask any.
Senator KENNEDY. Do you know from your own knowledge whether
Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know.
Senator KENNEDY. Were there any in fact included in that list?
The CHAIRMAN. His answer was he did not know.
Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know.
Senator KENNEDY. You have the list of the 21 ?

Mr. PROCTOR. I have a list of the 21. I also have a list of about 400 people.

be one.

you do it?

any were ?

The CHAIRMAN. Ask him the questions but give him time to answer the questions,

Mr. PROCTOR. In addition to the 21 subscribers, there were about 400 other subscribers who had decided to join the country club, of which I can provide the list to the committee.

Senator KENNEDY. You are familiar with the 21 incorporators ? Mr. PROCTOR. I am. Senator KENNEDY. Were any of those black? Mr. PROCTOR. No. Senator KENNEDY. To your knowledge do you know whether any of the 400 members of the club were black?

Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know.

Senator KENNEDY. Would you know if there were some black members ?

Senator TYDINGS. Do you really want us to believe that you do not know whether any of the subscribers were black?

Mr. PROCTOR. There are one or two names that I would not know, and I would not answer that they were black or white.

Senator KENNEDY. Were there any blacks that played on the golf course prior to the time that it became the Capital City Country Club, that is while it was the municipal club?

Mr. PROCTOR. Wait a minute, repeat the question, please.

Senator KENNEDY. Were any black citizens permitted to play on the municipal golf course?

Mr. PROCTOR. When the city was operating it?
Senator KENNEDY. When the city was operating it.

Mr. PROCTOR. I do not know. It was a city golf course. It was open to the public. It was not a private country club. It was operated by the city, and for city revenue. The pros were hired by the city. I cannot answer that question because I am maybe a 1-day-a-week golfer.

Senator KENNEDY. What was the pattern or the practice at this time in municipal country clubs either in Tallahassee or in that area? Were blacks permitted to play?

Mr. PROCTOR. Senator, I was not familiar with the other country clubs in that area.

Senator KENNEDY. Actually the Florida A&M golf team, which as I understand it was all black, was allowed to play there?

Mr. PROCTOR. Was allowed to play? They could have been.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you familiar with that?
Mr. PROCTOR. I am not familiar with it.

Senator KENNEDY. As I understand it they were allowed to use the course before 8 a.m. every morning.

Mr. PROCTOR. Also the Florida State University Golf Club were able to use it. They could have played. I would not necessarily know.

Senator KENNEDY. At some time then in 1956 this course was turned over to a group of incorporators?

Mr. PROCTOR. That is right, May 4, 1956. Now may I bring out a point here?

Senator KENNEDY. Yes, I wish you would.

Mr. PROCTOR. You mentioned the fact about Judge Carswell's name being one of the original subscribers, and on the 21 subscribing original directors. It just happens that I was among the original 21. To my knowledge Harrold Carswell never participated during that time, never attended a meeting to my knowledge, and I attended about 93

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