question of the Tallahassee country club. Now, I don't know all of the facts and I understand there is a special witness who will be able to present those to this committee. I do know from faint recollection that was involved, maybe in a way similar to Judge Carswell's involvement; I don't know about that. I don't play golf, either. I never have. But since the judge denied that he played golf and now I have denied it, I don't want you to get the impression that we don't raise good golfers down our way. In fact, Bert Yancey, who won the Bing Crosby Open last Sunday, was raised on that same golf course that we are talking about. We are very proud of him. His father was city manager of Tallahassee there some 20-odd years. We have a lot of other people who like to play golf.

My recollection is very hazy. Some of the newsmen came up to me yesterday afternoon and were asking me some questions about this, and I said to them that I did recall that in the beginning of that issue of changing the ownership of the Tallahassee country club there were a lot of people who felt that racial discrimination was part of the motivation. And, as I recall, that is true.

Now, I think all this started back around 1952 or 1953. This is a period that I was thinking in terms of. Whatever this was, it became rather settled down and I know some time later-I don't know what the dates were, but there was a movement developed in the community to help the country club expand its facilities and be able to better entertain visitors. You know the usual arguments that are made to the people they usually go to for support for this kind of project.

They came to me and I know that I agreed to give $100. I think several hundred people in town did that, including our most distinguished citizens, I suppose. But you will get the facts on that a little later.

I never did go out and play golf. I was trying to meet what I thought was some civic responsibility when I subscribed. I think my wife did say at the time, too, that she thought it would be well for us to be able to go out there and enjoy meals and to take friends out there from time to time.

Anyhow, when I left Tallahassee to come up to Washington, which I did at the beginning of 1961, I offered my membership to be returned. I had used it very little and somebody, I don't even remember who, bought my membership and repaid to me substantially, if not all, that I had originally advanced.

Then there was the 22-year-old statement from the Georgia campaign that was talked about a great deal. I don't know any stronger terms the judge could have used in stating his own disavowal and abhorrence for the sentiments expressed.

Senator Tydings, I think, was very right in pointing up the offensiveness of such sentiments to most Americans of all sections of the Nation, black and white alike. And we can never-and he can never— expunge this from the record. Judge Carswell or Justice Carswell will be living it down all the days of his life, I suppose. But Judge Carswell, gentlemen, is no racist. He is no white supremacist. He is no segregationist. I am convinced of this and I feel sure that most, if not all, of you are.

Now, if there are any lingering doubts with any of you, I would urge you to consider carefully the judgment of the judges who have

worked on case after case involving civil rights with Judge Carswell. Surely Judge Tuttle would know all about this. Judge Tuttle wanted to be here and to testify personally in this hearing in support of Judge Carswell. He couldn't come for reasons he explained in a handwritten note to the chairman.

Let me read you just briefly from what Judge Tuttle said, not all of his letter:

I would like to express my great confidence in him—

Speaking of Judge Carswell—

as a person and as a judge. My particular reason for writing you at this time is that I am fully convinced that the recent reporting of a speech he made in 1948 may give an erroneous impression of his personal and judicial philosophy. And I would be prepared to express this conviction of mine based upon my observation of him during the years I was privileged to serve as chief justice of the Court of Appeals of the Fifth Circuit.

Now, I think most of you know who Judge Tuttle is. He has served as chief judge of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, and this man has made more judgments, and he has written more opinions, upholding civil rights matters, I think, than any judge in all the land. And it is inconceivable to me that he would have served alongside Judge Carswell and make a statement of support like he has made here, and like he feels deeply, if he had the slightest feeling that there was any racial bias or prejudice within this man.

Back in January of 1942, the late Senator Scott Lucas put in the Congressional Record a story from the New York Times which was published on January 11, the day before. This record is entitled, "Immortal Words of Famous Americans." I don't know how or when I put it in a file, but I did and I ran across it the other day. It was very interesting to me to go back over it. Here the New York Times, about a month after Pearl Harbor, I suppose being aroused in a patriotic sense itself as a great publishing company and aware of the fact that it was a time when the country needed to be aroused patriotically, scanned the literature of our Nation and came up with a group of statements that had been made about our country that it regarded as especially immortal. There are words here from Patrick Henry, as you would surmise, and Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson, and Longfellow, and many, many others commonly known to all of us.

But there was one statement included that I was not familiar with before. It was a statement by a former Frenchman named Crevecoeur, if I pronounce his name correctly. He was a farmer who came over to this country in the last half of the 18th century and settled in New England. He published a little pamphlet entitled, "Letters from an American Farmer." And included in what this farmer said were these words:

The American is a new man who acts on new principles; he must, therefore, entertain new ideas and form new opinions. From involuntary idleness, service dependence, penury and useless labor, he has passed to toils of a very different nature, rewarded by ample subsistence.

Is not this really the glory of this country, that the American is a new man, that he is capable of acting on new principles? And he must, therefore, develop new ideas and form new opinions. This is part of the soul, I think, of our country; and I think the simple fact that Judge

Carswell has openly professed here as abhorrant what he said in some long ago day, and the fact that his record since so clearly supersedes the old with new ideas and new principles, should provide adequate answer and satisfaction. I think all of us, whether we are serving in the Senate or whether we are serving on the court or any other place, will agree that Lincoln set this issue in good focus with a few words when he said: "I will adopt new views when I am convinced they are true views." I think this is just exactly what has happened in the case of Harrold Carswell.

Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Ervin.

Senator ERVIN. I have no questions. I just want to commend the excellence of Governor Collins' statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bayh.

Senator BAYH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say for the record what I previously did not have the good fortune to say in this forum, that of all the public servants I have had the good fortune to become familiar with, I know of no man I respect more than the witness who is presently before us.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator BAYH. He has served his State and has had the opportunity to serve his Nation. I have had a chance to work with him in what I felt at the time was a great national cause as far as constitutional amendment was concerned, and I have always found him to be honest and sincere. I would hope that some day, when I have had the opportunity to serve as he has had over a period of time, I could just come close to the record he has made.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator BAYH. It is a privilege and certainly a tribute to Judge Carswell that you are here. I think you hit on the points that are a matter of concern. I think most of them did given concern and hopefully, they will be all laid to rest.

You pointed out the 1948 statement which was a matter of concern to the judge and I think to all of us. I think you would recognize that at least I would not, and I am sure you will concur that we would not, want to condemn a man for a statement that he made 22 years ago in the heat of a campaign. The issue before us, if we are to fulfill our responsibility, is to recognize that if there is nothing between 1948, the occurrence of the very unfortunate statement, and a repudiation of that statement in 1970, there is a long void there that causes a considerable amount of concern. That is why we are looking for other acts or deeds to show repudiation at an earlier date. Your judgment is one of these acts and deeds, in my analysis. You have known this man, worked with him, and had the chance to become familiar with his thought processes.

Let me deal with one more thing. We cannot go over all the bits and pieces. But let me deal with the founding of this golf course.

Do you recall back when it was being put together, Governor Collins, that there was a general feeling around the State of Florida that at least some people felt they ought to look for ways to circumvent the Supreme Court ruling which prohibited the segregation of public facilities?

40-399-70- -6

Mr. COLLINS. Senator, let me say this before responding to the record. I have nothing but admiration and respect for any member of this committee who wants to delve into and get the details of the background of any man who is before you where you have such a solemn and important responsibility of making a judgment. I don't resent your inquiry or that of anybody else here. And I am sure Judge Carswell doesn't. I think the country generally has awakened to the idea that it is appropriate for more detailed examination to be made than perhaps has been made in the past. This is wholesome, I think. I think these things are in the direction of good government. So I have no resentment at all, and I am sure Judge Carswell and those who want to see him on the Supreme Court, who feel that he is qualified to be on the Supreme Court, are anxious to respond to whatever questions you

raise.

I hate to get into this thing because I am not sure of my facts and I think you are going to be made sure of the facts from this other witness, Mr. Proctor, who is here I saw him. But I do think you ought to think in terms of the context of a long period of time here. When the talk was first running around our town about changing the country club from municipal ownership to private ownership, I think practically all of this was in that period around 1952 and 1953. I think there were some court decisions back in those days. And I think that this is when the first move was made.

Later on this move, so far as I know, didn't succeed. And later on, another move was made. In that period of time, it was after the Brown decision and all these other decisions had come along, after the people had been better conditioned to legal responsibility and all this sort of thing, and I don't recall any feeling in the community at that later time involving any racial issues. I know if it had been raised there, I doubt very much that I would have given them $100 if I felt that this was motivated by the desire to set up a plan for practicing racial discrimination.

I think most of us at that time thought the law was settled. And I don't know the extent to which black people were permitted to use the club facilities. I frankly don't know that. I used it very little myself. While I do think it is important to recognize that at one point, you doubtless had a motivation that did involve that, this was before the decisions of the court which clarified the responsibilities with respect to something like that. Later on they made this move, they didn't have any money to improve the facilities, and they made this communitywide civic move to try to get support for it. I got into it somewhere along then, and I got out of it, too. And, apparently, Judge Carswell got into it along that time and he got out of it. Now, I don't know what I was involved in it, the signing of papers or anything of this sort, like apparently he has, from what was said here.

Senator BAYH. I don't want anyone to think it was my thought that anything had been going on previously to this time. I have decided in my own mind the particular significance of this and only after the chronology of the thing was in November 7, 1955, the U.S. Supreme Court decided a case, Owen v. The City of Atlanta. In November 1955, the law of the land prohibited this type of assumption of public facility into a private corporation for the purpose of avoiding integration. Then this incorporation that we are discussing at some length here took place on April 24, 1956, the first part of the following year.

At that particular time, there was a case entitled Augustus v. The City of Pensacola, which was previously before the courts to try to resolve the same problem in Pensacola.

Now, that is the time reference. We do have a statement that was at least in one of the papers, that one of the members who signed this of course, that motive isn't necessarily attributed to everyone or that they were even familiar with it. Julian C. Smith "It was in the back of our minds that this was the purpose."

Now, do you feel that at that time, to your knowledge, it was not the purpose to subvert the previous Supreme Court decision?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, here again, my recollection is so hazy about this thing that I really hate to talk about it. Judge Carswell had stated his own position and I can't state his for him.

Senator BAYH. If you don't remember

Mr. COLLINS. I remember I got into it because I was involved in a somewhat similar way, and yet I don't think anybody in my area has a clearer record of nondiscrimination than I have.

Senator BAYH. No question about it.

Mr. COLLINS. My efforts have probably been puny in reality, but at the same time, I have tried to keep an open mind to recognize legal responsibilities and moral responsibilities that are inherent in all of this. And I know the circumstances were such at the same time that I didn't feel that I was doing anything wrong by giving $100 to this club campaign. And I assume that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.

Senator BAYH. No one has carried a heavier burden under probably more difficult circumstances than you have, Governor.

Mr. COLLINS. I don't think I am on trial here.

Senator BAYH. If I am ever on trial, I would like to have you as a witness in my support.

Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Burdick.

Senator BURDICK. I simply want to thank the Governor for his contribution this morning. I think his contribution is excellent.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator Burdick, thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. We are going to recess when Senator Hruska has finished, until 2 o'clock.

Senator HRUSKA. I have just one brief observation and a few questions. First, it is a compliment to the committee that a man with the national standing of Governor Collins would appear before us and testify as he has.

We are grateful for your appearance.

Governor, a few moments ago, there was reference to the 1948 speech, and then a repudiation of this speech in 1970. Some would wish us to think that these two events are back to back, with no intervening acts or declarations to support Judge Carswell's repudiation. Is it not true, however, that if that speech was made and even if he felt that way at the time, there had been a subsequent, continuous repudiation of it in the life and in the career and particularly in the public acts of Judge Carswell?

Mr. COLLINS. That is certainly true, Senator, in my judgment. I think that he started repudiating that speech within months after that speech was made, and I think in his lifetime activities since that time, that has been well indicated and shown.