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this same litigation by the Supreme Court of the United States, it is, upon consideration, hereby

Ordered:

1. Relief sought by petitioners is denied at this time without prejudice to petitioners, or any of them, to proceed for relief in the appropriate court or courts of the State of Florida either by petition for a writ of habeas corpus or under the ambit of Criminal Procedure Rule No. 1 of the Supreme Court of Florida.

2. The Court finds that it has jurisdiction of this cause and retains jurisdiction for a period of thirty (30) days during which time petitioners are afforded opportunity to proceed as hereinabove provided. Done and ordered in Chambers at Tallahassee this 3rd day of August 1964.

G. HARROLD CARSWELL,

U.S. District Judge.

IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT.

Before Rives and Jones, Circuit Judges, and Simpson, District Judge

ISRAEL DRESNER, ET AL.

FRANK STOUTAMIRE, AS CHIEF OF POLICE, CITY OF TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA

WAYNE C. HARTMIRE

FRANK STOUTAMIRE, AS CHIEF OF POLICE, CITY OF TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA Per Curiam :

The District Court is directed to modify its order so as to provide as to each petitioner that if such petitioner makes application for habeas corpus to a state court of competent jurisdiction, and if such state court fails either to order the discharge of such petitioner from custody or his release from custody upon nominal bail within three (3) days from the date of filing of such application any further delay will rendre state corrective process ineffective to protect the rights of such petitioner, and the District Court will upon the request of such petitioner forthwith proceed to a hearing of the application on its merits, and further that District Court will retain jurisdiction until the termination of any such state court habeas corpus proceeding, and if such petitioner is denied relief or the proceeding unreasonably delayed, the District Court will upon request of such petitioner proceed to a hearing on the merits.

With the modification so directed, the judgment of the District Court is Affirmed. This order shall serve as the mandate of this Court and is issued forthwith.

RICHARD T. RIVES,

U.S. Circuit Judge. WARREN L. JONES,

U.S. Circuit Judge. BBYAN SIMPSON,

U.S. District Judge. Attest a true copy issued by the mandate of the Court this August 5th, 1964.

RICHARD T. RIVES,

U.S. Circuit Judge.

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA,

TALLAHASSEE DIVISION

(Tallahassee Civil Action No. 1016)

ISRAEL DRESNER, AUSTIN M. WARMER, ROBERT M. BROWN, PETTY D. MCKINNEY,

MARTIN FREEDMAN, ARTHUR L. HARDGE, ROBERT J. STONE, J. W. COLLIER, Jr., PETITIONERS,

vs.

FRANK STOUTAMIRE, AS CHIEF OF POLICE, CITY OF TALLLAHASSEE, FLORIDA,

RESPONDENT.

(Tallahassee Civil Action No. 1017)

WAYNE C. HARTMIRE, PETITIONER,

VS.

FRANK STOUAMIRE, RESPONDENT

ORDER

This Court having been duly advised that the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit on August 5, 1964 affirmed the judgments of this Court entered in the above captioned cases respectively by its order dated August 3, 1964 in Tallahassee Civil Action 1016 and by its order dated August 4, 1964 in Tallahassee Civil Action No. 1017, and further directing that this Court modify said orders in certain particulars, in conformity therewith, it is hereby

Ordered that previous orders of this Court dated August 3, 1964 in Tallahassee Civil Action No. 1016 and August 4, 1964 in Tallahassee Civil Action No. 1017 be and they are hereby modified so as to provide as to each petitioner that if such petitioner makes application for habeas corpus to a state court of competent jurisdiction, and if such state court fails either to order the discharge of such petitioner from custody or his release from custody upon nominal bail within three (3) days from the date of filing of such application, that any further delay will render state corrective process ineffective to protect the rights of such petitioner; and this Court will upon the request of any such petitioner forthwith proceed to a hearing of the application on its merits, and further that this Court retains jurisdiction until the termination of any such state court habeas corpus proceeding, and if such petitioner is denied relief or the proceeding unreasonably delayed, this Court will upon request of such petitioner proceed to a hearing on the merits. Done and ordered in Chambers at Tallahassee this 6th day of August 1964.

G. HARROLD CARSWELL,

U.S. District Judge. Senator TYDINGS. I would like to read into the record at this time in the case of Lefton v. The City of Hattiesburg, cited as 333 Fed. 2d 280, from page 285, paragraph 2. The decision which was handed down by the U.S. Court of Appeals, Fifth Circuit on June 5, 1964. The court states, and I shall read that paragraph in its entirety: “Filing fees are not to be collected in connection

with criminal removal petitions. Such fees are regulated by statute. The comparison of the present statute with its predecessor shows that there is now no authority for the clerk to charge fees in such proceedings.”

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?
(No response.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Knopf.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

40-399—70-12

TESTIMONY OF NORMAN KNOPF, ATTORNEY, DEPARTMENT OF

JUSTICE

Thank you.

Mr. KNOPF. I de.

Mr. Chairman, before I am asked questions I would ask the committee's permission to make a statement of two or three sentences.

The CHAIRMAX. I can not hear you.

Mr. KNOPF. Mr. Chairman, before I answer questions, I would like permission to make a statement of just two or three sentences if I may.

My name is Norman Knopf. I wish to put on the record that I am here pursuant to a subpena issued by this committee. I also would like it put on the record that I am presently employed by the Department of Justice, but any knowledge that I have regarding Judge Carswell was learned hy me 2 years prior to my joining this Department and I have gained no knowledge nor have I had any contact with Judge Carswell while working for the Department.

Senator Tydings. Would you give your educational background, Mr. Knopf?

Mr. KNOPF. Yes, sir. I attended Cornell University where I received an A.B. in 1961. I then went on to Columbia Law School, where I was on the Law Review and received an LL.B in 1964. Thereafter in the fall of 1964 through the fall of 1966 I clerked for a Federal judge in the sourthern district of New York, and thereafter I joined the Department of Justice in the civil division, appellate section, where I am currently employed. I write briefs in civil matters, contracts, torts, that type of thing and argue cases in the U.S. court of appeals. I am a member of the bar of the State of New York, the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States, and the bar of most of the U.S. court of appeals, the one exception being the first circuit. I presently live in Bethesda, Md., with my wife and two children.

I have a son 2 years old and a daughter 3 weeks old.

Senator TYDINGS. Mr. Knopf, I want to direct your attention to the summer of 1964. Could you tell the committee whether you were engaged in bringing legal assistance to civil rights workers ?

Mr. KNOPF. In the summer of 1964 I volunteered to work with the Law Students Civil Rights Research Council. This was an organization of law students who wished to assist civil rights lawyers. Being law students or students recently graduated such as I was, not admitted to the bar, we knew we could not practice law, but we volunteered to assist full fledged lawyers who were practicing law. As such I was assigned to northern Florida to work with attorneys for the Lawyers Constitutional Defense Committee. Mr. Rosenberger, who was just here, was one of those attorneys whom I assisted. Mr. Lowenthal, who, I read in the paper, was before this committee, was also an attorney I worked with.

I was down in Florida during August, and a little bit into September. I stayed there constantly, while the Constitutional Defense Committee lawyers came and went in 2 week periods.

Specifically we were assigned, the lawyers and my assisting them, to work with a CORE voter registration project to register black people in the northern area of Florida. Florida had no literacy requirement for registration. A person merely had to show up at the

registration desk and give his name. The CORE volunteer workers, many of whom were from Florida itself, and some of whom came from the North, would assist black people in getting to the registration place to register so that they could vote in the Federal elections scheduled in November.

As I heard Mr. Rosenberger testify and as this committee has heard, the project met with a great deal of hostility by the white people of the area. There were assaults. There was a bombing. There was a shooting, and so on. There were frequent arrests.

Specifically with the arrests, this is where the Lawyers' Constitutional Defense Committee attorneys came in, and tried to defend project workers that were arrested or remove the cases. As an assistant to the attorneys, I was sort of a jack of all trades. I typed papers, filed papers served papers, ran errands, kept our office a one-desk, onetypewriter office in a boiler room in a cellar. I also was able to accompany the attorneys in many instances in their given rounds and duties to observe what happened.

Senator TYDINGS. During the time that you were in Tallahassee working with civil rights workers, did you have occasion to work on a case involving a man named Wechsler and some other students who were arrested?

Mr. KNOPF. Yes, sir. That was my first big case that I had some contact with down there. Wechsler and some other voter registration workers were arrested for trespassing while going to black tenant farmers and asking them to come and register to vote.

Senator TYDINGS. Was that the incident just described by Mr. Rosenberger!

Mr. KNOPF. That is correct, and so I will 'not repeat what has already been said, except to say that I prepared under Mr. Rosenberger's direction the papers for removal by typing them out, and I also filed the papers in Judge Carswell's court. We filed the removal papers, and I was also with Mr. Rosenberger when he went to the State court after the removal papers had been filed to inform the State court officials that under Federal law they had no jurisdiction to continue to trial as the case had been removed.

Senator "TYDINGS. Why did you try to remove the case ?

Mr. KNOPF. As I stated, the town, the whole general area was extremely hostile. We were harassed by the police. We were harassed by the white populace in general. We felt that there was no chance of a fair trial in the local courts. I believe the courtrooms were still segregated. Negroes did not use--they had special rest' 'room facilities and so on. We believe there hadn't been Negroes serving on the jury. This was our understanding anyway, and we were under the belief that Federal law permitted these registration workers, gave them the right to go and solicit, constitutional right and statutory right, to go and help black people register in Federal elections, and we felt that this right would be thwarted, if it had to be, if workers were to be tried in a court where it was felt they could not be assured of impartial treatment.

Therefore, the attorneys instructed me to file removal papers, believing that it was a Federal matter, since these workers were operating under Federal law, there were Federal statutes regarding the right to vote, and that perhaps they would get a fairer trial within the Federal court, the local Federal court.

Senator TYDINGS. Now go back to the Wechsler case. What happened in the Wechsler case in the local court when the removal papers were filed ?

Mr. KNOPF. Did you say local Federal court?
Senator TYDINGS. In the State court.

Mr. KNOPF. In the State court? I was present when Mr. Rosenberger served the papers on the judge, and the defendants were already in the courtroom, and the trial was just about to start when Mr. Rosenberger gave the papers and explained to the judge who appeared to be unfamiliar with removal proceedings exactly what had occurred and that the State court no longer had jurisdiction to try the case.

The judge indicated, as Mr. Rosenberger said, that he was going ahead. He didn't know anything about removal. He wasn't going to pay any attention to it and told him to sit down and get away from these people because he asked Mr. Rosenberger whether he was a member of the Florida Bar, and when he said "No," the judge said, “Well, then, get away from these defendants. You cannot represent them."

I believe sometime before Mr. Rosenberger was thrown out of the courtroom it was stated that there was no attorney present to represent these people, that they could not get an attorney and they would like a continuance at least to get an attorney to represent these persons, and at one point one of the when the trial had started the judge had asked the workers some questions. One of the workers turned around to look at Mr. Rosenberger who was sitting in the baek, for some kind of advice, and at that point the judge threw Mr. Rosenberger out of the courtroom. He ordered him out and when he was slow in going somebody came along and helped him out.

Senator HRUSKA. Would the Senator yield? That is a reference, when you say the courtroom, that is the city court.

Mr. KNOPF. This is the local Gadsden County.
Senator HRUSKA. The local court?
Mr. KNOPF. That is correct.

Senator HRUSKA. You wouldn't want the impression to be gotten that Judge Carswell suffered any lawyer to be kicked out of his courtroom at any

time? Mr. KNOPF. Oh, no, I am referring to the Gadsden County Court; yes, sir. It was then after that incident, and the trial was immediately held, these people were sentenced to 60 days in jail or a $50 fine, and they were immediately put into the local jailhouse. Then I was told to prepare habeas corpus papers to file in Federal court because the attorney told me that it was clear, and I had read the statute, this was my understanding, that it was clear that the State court had no jurisdiction to try these people, since the matter had been removed, and therefore it was mandatory that a habeas corpus writ be issued.

At this point, as I recall it, Mr. Rosenberger was about to leave, and we got a new attorney, Mr. Lowenthal to come down.

Senator TYDINGS. Now did you personally assist Mr. Lowenthal and did you appear with Mr. Lowenthal before Judge Carswell in the Wechsler case ?

Mr. KNOPF. Yes. I was present with Mr. Lowenthal when he went before Judge Carswell to seek the habeas corpus relief.

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