Senator WHITE. Would you say that the jurisdiction of the Federal Communications Commission is wide enough to compel them to install the radiotelegraph apparatus in place of the radiotelephone?

Mr. DUNBAR. If I understood your question, I should not think it is; no, sir. I am referring to the regulatory powers of the Commission over the Lorain County Radio Corporation; because it is a public utility and is subject to the full jurisdiction of the Federal Communications Commission. The purpose of mentioning that fact is this: The Federal Communications Commission does not have general power of regulation over ships as such; but when a ship puts on the telephone service of the Lorain County Radio Corporation, then the Federal Communications Commission does have control over the service of the Lorain County Radio Corporation, for the simple reason that the corporation is a public utility.

Therefore, in the amendment which we have drawn, instead of endeavoring to describe the kind of equipment that would be used and instead of going into a list of technical requirements in that respect, we have endeavored to reach the same result-that is, the efficient service and reliable service-by describing the results that must be accomplished by the equipment. And the results that would be required of the equipment described in our proposed amendment would be much more adequate and beneficial and much more effective for the purpose of safety of life and property than the requirements in the bill as it now stands, as applied to the radiotelegraph.

At this time I should like to read the proposed amendment to which I have just referred. It will come in at page 11, after line 16, of Senate Resolution 595. Before reading it, I should like to say that this would be the fourth exception to the general provisions of the bill, in part 2, and would be numbered "4." [Reading:]

A ship exclusively navigating the Great Lakes and their connecting and tributary waters as far east as Montreal, equipped with an efficient radiotelephone apparatus which shall be installed, operated, and maintained in accordance with the rules, regulations, and conditions (including the conditions and procedure to be observed in communications involving safety of life and property on the Great Lakes) promulgated or imposed by the Commission pursuant to subsection (O) of section 4 hereof.

The character of the radiotelephone apparatus and service contemplated by this subsection 4 is such as shall be (a) capable of furnishing continuous telephonic communication 24 hours per day while the vessel is out of port; (b) capable of furnishing direct telephonic communication between ships so equipped over distances of at least 100 nautical miles; (c) capable of furnishing communication between ships so equipped, through a shore station or stations, and places in the Great Lakes region where land and telephone service is available; (d) capable of furnishing communication through land stations between ships so equipped on the Great Lakes; (e) capable of furnishing through land stations, communications between ships so equipped and ships equipped with radio telegraph on the Great Lakes.

A source of energy independent of the propelling power of the ship and of any other electrical system shall be available on such ships and shall be capable of being put into operation rapidly and of operating such radiotelephone apparatus for at least 6 continuous hours from ship to ship over a range of at least 100 nautical miles by day under normal conditions and certain circumstances. A log or other record shall be kept of communications to or from such ships so equipped with radiotelephone apparatus as may be required by the Commission.

It has been stated that the main purpose of this entire proposed legislation is safety of life and property. The evidence that will be introduced by those who know more about the situation on the Great Lakes than I do, I believe,

will show this: that if this bill should be passed and become a law as it is now written, it would create a menace to life and property on the Great Lakes, in that if all those ships should be equipped with radiotelegraph service, it would put out of commission the use of the radio direction-finders, which the shipping people tell me is a much more important matter than the radiotelephone or telegraph service. I propose to do nothing in that respect except to say that I believe the evidence, when it is in, will show that fact.

Commander Webster stated in connection with that paragraph of his summation, to the effect that the proposed legislation provides that the Commission investigate and study the problem of the use of radio and wire communications in connection with safety of life and property and of the best methods for obtaining the cooperation and coordination of these systems, that one of the purposes of this proposed law is to require the Commission to make, or to impose on the Commission the duty of making investigations and studies for the purpose of coordinating the radio service on the ships with land lines and land stations. What has already been done by the Lorain County Radio Corporation meets that purpose and fulfills that requirement 100 percent. It does not require any investigation by the Federal Communications Commission to seek means and methods whereby that can be accomplished. While this proposed amendment provides only as a minimum requirement that the service shall be coordinated with land lines so that telephones could be reached in the region of the Great Lakes, the fact is that at the present time, without anything further being done, a ship on the Great Lakes may have through, direct telephonic communication with this telephone right here in this office, or with practically any other telephone in the United States and Canada, owned and operated by any of the 6,000 telephone companies that operate in the two countries.

It is a fact that right now, without anything more being done, any ship on the Great Lakes can receive telegraph messages from anyone in the United States or Canada, or cablegrams from any place in the world. Not only that, but the same is true of the messages going in the other direction. They can send telegraphic communications any-. where that the land-line telegraphs reach.

Senator WHITE. How many ships are there on the Great Lakes at the present time equipped with the radio telephone?

Mr. DUNBAR. Eighteen. And there are 50 sets in process of manufacture. There were 18 at the close of navigation.

Senator WHITE. How many ships are there-American and Canadian-that are equipped with radio telegraph?

Mr. DUNBAR. I cannot answer that; but I think Mr. Johnson and some of the others can give you full information and statistics on that.

I might say this: that 18 ships may seem to be a rather small number; but I should like to call attention to the fact that this is a very small company. About the time that you were having your conference in London, Senator White, and the time when these conventions on this subject were going on, the Lorain County Radio Corporation's business was simply that of furnishing loudspeakers for people's homes and offices, and that is all the business it had. Then it had a vision of something more being done, of a greater service being rendered to the shipping on the Great Lakes. After a considerable amount of study and investigation, they came to the Federal Communications Commission and obtained an experimental license to build a station on the shore of Lake Erie, to see if they could not furnish telephone service to those boats, principally on Lake Erie, as they had in mind at that time.

The Federal Communications Commission, after hearings and after considerable investigation, thought it was worth while to permit an experimental station to be established there. And it was estab

lished at considerable cost to the people who did it. Finally they got to a place where they could talk for probably 200 miles in each direction from Lorain, up and down the Lakes. It was a slow process; one or two captains were willing to try it out; and it worked fairly well. But with other improvements and the application of other inventions, the distances have been pushed out. And some of the ship captains are here to tell you that now, without any increase of power but with additional licenses, experimental and otherwise, that the Federal Communications Commission has granted, they are now able to spread out this system so that they can now talk almost anywhere up and down the Lakes.

With reference to this particular company, I should like to say that this is a small and independent company, and one without wealthy people in it. Some of the employees and workmen have bought stock in the company so that the company could carry on and develop itself. If you measure the success of the company by financial standards, it would not be very considerable; and if you should measure the success of the company by the number of boats it had equipped by the end of the navigation period, it would not be considerable.

But if you measure the success of the company by the distances covered and by the progress the company has made from the days when it furnished loudspeakers in people's homes and offices, to the time when it is now able to furnish telephonic communication from boats on the Lakes to almost any place, and with insignificant amounts of power, and when such service is reliable service under almost any circumstances, then-measured by that standard-the success of the company has been phenomenal. And that explains why we are so earnest about it and so enthusiastic about it—not when measured by financial standards nor by the number of boats, but by what we have been able to accomplish with little means; no great engineers in the organization, but men of vision and men of originality who have done things that people thought could not be done men of small means. The system has been built up on the blood and sweat of many laboring men who have been working for the organization.

Now, we see, pushing across our path, something that will destroy this company and will prevent the further development and probably the further application of the same principles to other places.

Mr. Chairman, I must apologize for speaking so earnestly and enthusiastically.

Senator WHITE. If a man does not believe in his cause, he ought not talk about it.

Mr. DUNBAR. Thank you very much for hearing me, Senator. STATEMENT OF H. E. HAGEMAN, LORAIN, OHIO, REPRESENTING THE LORAIN COUNTY RADIO CORPORATION

Senator WHITE. Now I have the name of Mr. Hageman. May I say, gentlemen, that I do not wish to cut anyone off; but I must suggest that so far as possible we should avoid duplication of testimony concerning the same points.

Mr. HAGEMAN. I should like to say just a few words. About a year ago we told this committee we had six ships equipped with

radiotelephone service. At this time we wish to tell you about the progress we have made in developing a modern and up-to-date telephone service on the Great Lakes.

During the years 1934 and 1935 we had only two talking circuits: We had a ship-to-shore circuit, and the other was a ship-to-ship circuit. On the ship-to-shore circuit it was possible for ships to talk in the daytime about 180 miles. These ships could talk from Buffalo to Lorain, to the east, and as far west as Detroit. For the balance of the journey on the Lakes, service could be used only during the nighttime.

In the year 1936 we secured two more talking circuits, which made it possible for ships at any point on the Great Lakes to talk to any telephone on land in the United States or Canada at any time, during the day or night.

During the latter part of the 1936 shipping season we were handling about 2,000 calls per month. Approximately one-half of these calls were test calls made by shipowners and other interested parties, to give our service a real test under all kinds of weather conditions. During the months of October and November we handled over 600 calls for the Wilson Transit Co. alone. Mr. Alexander Wood, the dispatcher for the Wilson Transit Co., is here and can verify this statement.

It was necessary for our company to make a large investment this last year in order to add the additional circuits and improve the service to the fleet owners. The number of subscribers in the ship directory for the Great Lakes was published in the year 1936. It is necessary to have a directory so that the ships can call whatever particular ships they desire to talk to. And I have here a copy of the list of boats which will be equipped at the beginning of the navigation season.

Senator WHITE. Do you wish that to go in the record?

Mr. HAGEMAN. I can do that, if you like.

Senator WHITE. It is just as you say.

Mr. HAGEMAN. I should like to show it to the House committee on Wednesday, but I shall send a copy of the list to this committee. Senator WHITE. Very well.

Mr. HAGEMAN. I think there are 38 ships that will be equipped at the beginning of the navigation season in 1937.

The number of people employed by our company is being increased every month. At present we are building 50 radiotelephone sets to be installed as soon as the navigation season opens. We feel that if the radiotelephone is not given recognition in this bill before Congress, then all of the money that has been invested to develop and operate the radiotelephone will be lost, because fleet owners cannot afford to have two methods of communication on the same ship.

We are an independent company and have been in the communication service over 40 years. We have seen the telephone develop, on land, until today there are hundreds of telephone calls for every telegraph message. Even though telephone service on the Great Lakes is new, nevertheless it has been used sufficiently long to prove to the people who have used the service that it is the most satisfactory means of communication that has ever been developed for the Great Lakes. We feel that the passage of a law compelling these people to go back to telegraph service would be the same as

passing a law enforcing people on land to go back to telegraph service.

Considerable interest has been shown, not only by the press but by many people, including engineers, who have visited Lorain to learn about this development. These people have come not only from nearby towns and cities but in some instances from distant cities. Several articles have appeared in magazines and newspapers. One of the latest appeared in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on January 19, 1937. This article referred to it as the new marvel of science. The article is too long to read, of course.

Captain JOYCE. We have a copy of it.

Mr. HAGEMAN. Now, I should like to read an article which appeared in the Milwaukee Sentinel, in November 1936. This is as follows:

SHIP-TO-SHORE PHONE RECORD; LAKE FREIGHTER COMMUNICATES WITH DOCKS

HERE

A ship-to-shore telephone communication between a lake freighter and the Reiss docks here this afternoon, established a new record for this port. Superintendent Joseph Revolinsky, of the C. Reiss Coal Co., answered a phone ring at his desk and was surprised to hear the voice of Captain Frankforther, of the steamer J. L. Reiss. The steamer was in midlake and in need of coal, and the captain asked regarding the facilities to fuel his ship at Manitowoc.

Mr. Revolinsky arranged to have the steamer accommodated at the dock here.

The ship-to-shore telephone has been in the development stage for several years and has been used on trans-Atlantic ocean liners for some time, but it is only in the last 2 years that it has been used on the Great Lakes. At the present time there are about 20 ore carriers equipped with the wireless telephone, and during the coming winter it is estimated that there will be 30 or 40 more so equipped. Officers and men who are on ships equipped with ship-to-shore telephone state that it is much more desirable and practical than the radio telegraph which has been in use for many years. It enables the master to explain fully any difficulties that his ship may be in, and in case of a disaster or injury to any member of the crew, complete details and instructions can be given and received. It is, undoubtedly, one of the greatest improvements in aids to navigation and safety that has been developed so far.

Then I should like to read an editorial of the Lorain Journal. The heading of the editorial is, "Amend This Bill.”

For the second time in 2 years a bill has been introduced in Congress requiring all American vessels, including those on the Great Lakes, to maintain a radio watch.

The fundamental purpose of this bill, introduced by Senator Royal S. Copeland, of New York, is good. In this day and age, radio is as important a safety factor to shipping as lifeboats. Ready and immediate means of communication with the land and with other vessels will do much to allay the remaining perils of navigation.

However, the bill as now constituted is unfair and unwise. It provides for wireless telegraph only, instead of permitting ship operators to use either telegraph or radio telephone.

Both will give the protection that is the purpose of the bill. Radio telephone will do everything that radio telegraph will do, in the case of the Great Lakes, at least. In fact, there is ample reason to believe that for Great Lakes boats it is greatly to be preferred.

Experiences of the past 2 years have shown that a lake craft with ship-toshore telephone equipment is about as closely in touch with the rest of the world as is a telephone-equipped office or home. There seems no more reason to require a Great Lakes vessel to have wireless telegraph when radio telephone service is available, than to require Main Street stores to put in wireless.