Mr. JOHNSON. Senator, there is one more that has occurred to me this morning, it is with respect to the radio watch. The bill says that vessels which are at sea or out of port more than 48 hours must have three operators; cargo ships having an autoalarm may have one operator.

On the Great Lakes, Senator White, the longest unsheltered part of a ship's voyage from Duluth to Buffalo is for a period of about 33 hours, from Duluth to Whitefish. As you see on the chart, when the ship leaves Duluth, bound for Buffalo, in 36 hours she is at the Soo; but 4 hours before that, she is down to Whitefish, and she has sheltered water from Whitefish Point all the way through the St. Mary's River, a period of 10 or 12 hours. Then she has to cross Lake Huron, which covers a period of time of about 18 or 19 hours, for the smaller boats. Then she is in what we call the lower rivers, or the St. Clair and Detroit Rivers; and then she is in sheltered waters until she gets out to Southeast Shoal on Lake Erie, which covers a period of about 18 hours. Then, on to Buffalo, she has a remaining voyage of about 18 hours. We do not feel that we should be treated, when engaged in that trade, as thrown into the classification of ships which are at sea for more than 48 hours.

Senator WHITE. Will you prepare an amendment to that effect? Mr. JOHNSON. I should like to prepare a further amendment as to that.

Senator WHITE. If you will, I shall file that with the committee. Is there anyone else representing the Great Lakes interests, who wants to be heard?

The only other names I have are those of Mr. Rathborne, Mr. Baker, Captain Peterson, and Mr. Whittemore. Are there any of those who wish to speak very briefly; because I have to go down to the session of the Senate in just a moment?

(There was no response.)

Senator WHITE. Then I think we shall take a recess until after the Senate session and shall be back here at 1:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:05 p. m., a recess was taken until 1:30 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTER RECESS

The subcommittee reconvened, pursuant to the recess, at 1:30 p. m., Senator Wallace H. White, Jr., presiding.

Senator WHITE. The subcommittee will please come to order.

Mr. Johnson, when you were on the stand this morning you said that you would draft an amendment or that you had in mind an amendment which you wished to suggest. Have you prepared that draft?

STATEMENT OF GILBERT R. JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF THE LAKE CARRIERS' ASSOCIATION, CLEVELAND, OHIO-Resumed

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, Senator White; I have.

Senator WHITE. Perhaps it would be best if you gave it to the reporter, so that it would appear in the record.

Mr. JOHNSON. I shall be glad to do so, Senator. I have three amendments, all told. I found that Mr. Dunbar referred to parts

of the earlier ones, but they are the amendments to S. 595 proposed by the Lake Carriers' Association.

Senator WHITE. All right; then the three of them will be incorporated in the record.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, sir.

These, then, are the amendments to S. 595 proposed by the Lake Carriers' Association:

On page 10, at the bottom, amend section 10 by adding a new subsection as follows:

(e) With respect to cargo ships exclusively navigating the Great Lakes and their connecting and tributary waters as far east as Montreal, this section shall only apply to ships of 5,000 gross tons and over.

On page 11, amend section 10 by adding to section 353 (a), after line 16, a new subsection to read as follows:

(4) A ship exclusively navigating the Great Lakes and their connecting and tributary waters as far east as Montreal, equipped with an efficient radio telephone apparatus, which shall be installed, operated, and maintained in accordance with the rules, regulations, and conditions (including the conditions and procedure to be observed in communications involving safety of life and property on the Great Lakes) promulgated or imposed by the Commission pursuant to subsection (o) of section 4 hereof. The character of the radiotelephone apparatus and service contemplated by this subsection (4) is such as shall be (a) capable of furnishing continuous telephonic communication twenty-four hours per day while the vessel is out of port, (b) capable of furnishing direct telephonic communication between ships so equipped over distances of at least one hundred nautical miles, (c) capable of furnishing communication between ships so equipped through a shore station or stations and places in the Great Lakes region where land telephone service is available, (d) capable of furnishing communication through land station between ships so equipped on the Great Lakes, and (e) capable of furnishing through land stations communication between ships so equipped and ships equipped with radiotelegraph on the Great Lakes.

A source of energy independent of the propelling power of the ship and of any other electrical system shall be available on such ships and shall be capable of being put into operation rapidly and of operating such radiotelephone apparatus for at least six continuous hours and from ship to ship over a range of at least one hundred nautical miles by day under normal conditions and circumstances.

A log or other record shall be kept of communications to or from ships so equipped with radio telephone apparatus as may be required by the Commission. And finally, amend section 10, on page 13, by adding after line 10 a new subsection to read as follows:

(f) A cargo ship, exclusively navigating the Great Lakes and their connecting and tributary waters as far east as Montreal, shall, for safety purposes, carry at least one qualified operator.

Senator, in passing I should like to state that so far as we have been able to ascertain, at the time of opening of navigation this year, there will be about 180 American cargo ships equipped with either telephone or telegraph-ships equipped with one or the other. The telephone people say they will have 38 ships equipped with the telephone; so it is just a mathematical calculation, to ascertain the number of ships equipped with telegraph that there will be.

Senator WHITE. This morning I was asked if persons attending this hearing have the privilege of examining or cross-examining the witnesses. I said "no" to that. Of course, you can appreciate the fact that if I should permit one person to examine a witness, I should have to allow all persons to examine the witnesses, and this hearing would turn into a debate.

I did say to the person making that inquiry that if he would submit any questions he might have, in writing, I would ask them of the witnesses. Perhaps, Mr. Johnson, you can answer these questions as well as any of the others.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am a lawyer and a very poor witness.

Senator WHITE. Or perhaps you can refer me to someone else, then.

The first question is this: In the event the radiotelephone apparatus is approved, who would operate it and what class of operator's license would be required?

Are there any among those present in this group who could answer that question?

Mr. JOHNSON. I think perhaps the Federal Communications Commission could answer that, because it is already being done.

Senator WHITE. Does anyone know what class of operator is required?

STATEMENT OF COMDR. E. M. WEBSTER, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION, WASHINGTON, D. C.-Resumed

Commander WEBSTER. Telephone, third class, for installations that are less than 50 watts; and telephone, second class, when the power is above that.

That answers only part of that question; there are some other parts to it which I did not understand.

Senator WHITE. The question is in two parts: In the event radiotelephone apparatus is approved, who will operate it?

I presume that means it must be operated by a licensed operator of some sort.

Commander WEBSTER. The situation is that the vessel must carry someone who has the appropriate license.

Senator WHITE. Yes.

Commander WEBSTER. With the telephone equipment, anyone can do the talking.

Senator WHITE. Yes.

Commander WEBSTER. And, of course, doing the talking is, in a sense, the operation; that is to say, you or I or anyone not holding a license could talk over that instrument, but the vessel must have a licensed operator on board. Whether he is in attendance at the moment I am doing the talking is not so important, but he must be on board.

Senator WHITE. So that the master of a ship, unless he held a license from the Federal Communications Commission, would not be authorized to carry on this communication by telephone?

Commander WEBSTER. Oh, yes; the master could do the talking; anyone could do the talking.

Senator WHITE. But he would not take the place of a licensed operator?

Commander WEBSTER. No, sir; he would not.

Senator WHITE. That is, if the captain actually did the talking, he would still have to have a licensed operator on board the ship? Commander WEBSTER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHITE. And that operator would be of the class you just stated?

Commander WEBSTER. Yes, sir. But I should like to say, Senator, that that is the situation today, regardless of this bill or anything else. Even if we amend this bill so as to require the telephone, the situation would be no different than it is today.

Senator WHITE. Yes.

Now, this further inquiry was handed to me: What percent of the American ships on the Great Lakes are engaged in competitive international trade?

Can any of you gentlemen answer that question?

STATEMENT OF GILBERT R. JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF THE LAKE CARRIERS' ASSOCIATION, CLEVELAND, OHIO-Resumed

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, Senator White; I can answer that. I said this morning that the competition occurs in the smaller ships, under the 5,000-ton class.

Senator WHITE. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. We have about 220 American cargo ships in that class, and they are all engaged in competition in the coal and grain trades with the Canadian ships.

Senator WHITE. They are engaged in competitive international trade?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. But I might add, Senator, that the way things have been going the last few years, it is a theoretical competition, to a large extent. But we want to preserve what we have left. Senator WHITE. Yes.

Another question which I shall ask, as it was put to me, is this: Are Canadian ships permitted to carry freight or passengers between American ports on the Lakes?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is a very grievous problem, Senator, on the Lakes.

Senator WHITE. What is the answer?

Mr. JOHNSON. The Canadians are successfully doing it. Judge Bland, or the American Marine Fitters committee, at the last session of Congress, had that matter brought before them. While I am not speaking on behalf of the passenger ships, I do know in that connection that the Canadians are giving our American passenger carriers very severe competition, and they are circumventing our coastwise laws in that respect.

Senator WHITE. That covers the questions that I was asked to propound.

Now, the four witnesses whose names I have are Mr. Rathborne, Mr. Baker, Captain Peterson, and Mr. Whittemore. Are you ready now, Mr. Rathborne?

Mr. RATHBORNE. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF MERVYN RATHBORNE, PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN RADIO TELEGRAPHISTS' ASSOCIATION, NEW YORK CITY

Mr. RATHBORNE. I represent at this hearing the American Radio Telegraphists' Association, and also the San Francisco Council of the Maritime Federation of the Pacific, which has a membership of 20,000 martime workers in that area.

Senator WHITE. Proceed in your own way, please, Mr. Rathborne.

Mr. RATHBORNE. Before we present our views with respect to this bill, Mr. Chairman, I should like to state, for the sake of the record, that we are here primarily interested in promoting the safety of life and property at sea; and our secondary purpose is to see that the interests of the members of the American Radio Telegraphists' Association are safeguarded by this legislation. However, our first thought is to protect the lives and property of the men who actually sail on the ships; and our viewpoint will be the views of the practical men on the ships, who work this apparatus.

Before presenting our proposed amendments on S. 595 we desire to make certain statements in opposition to the amendments offered by the Great Lakes ship owners.

First, an amendment permitting the exclusive use of radiotelephone apparatus on Great Lakes ships will defeat the purpose of both Senate bill 595 and the International Convention for Safety of Life at Sea. The purpose of the safety convention and of Senate bill 595 is to provide and promote greater safety for life and property at sea, through the establishment of an international system of uniform and reliable radio communications between all radioequipped ships and certain fixed radiotelegraph stations.

The amendment proposed by the Lake Carriers' Association will prevent the establishment of a reliable and uniform system of marine radio communications in those waters, because, first, some Great Lakes ships would be using radiotelephone equipment and others, including Canadian ships, would use radiotelegraph apparatus. Each system would employ a different frequency from that used by the other. Ships equipped with these two types of apparatus could not directly intercommunicate.

Second, marine radiotelephone equipment would be operated by personnel having no practical or technical knowledge of radio. In the event of the failure of such equipment in an emergency, there would be no qualified person on board ship to make adjustments or repairs.

In that connection I should like to state that it is my understanding that at the present time there are no radio operators as such on the Lakes ships which are equipped with radiotelephone. The masters have radiotelephone operators' third-class licenses, and they are the operators of the radiotelephone equipment.

I also should like to state that the requirements for obtaining a radiotelephone operator's third-class license are so lax that almost any citizen with no previous knowledge of radio can obtain one of these licenses after a few hours' study. And the report of the Federal Communications Commission for the past year, ending June 30, 1936, makes a statement that the requirements for this type of license are very limited, or words to that effect. The holding of a radiotelephone operator's license, third class, is no indication at all that a man has any previous knowledge or skill, or, indeed, that he has any knowledge or skill in the operation or repair of radio equipment; it merely permits him to push a button and speak into a microphone; it amounts only to permission to push a button.

And as I said before, in the event of the failure of such equipment in an emergency, there would be no qualified person on board ship to make adjustments or repairs.