would be the north extension of the 7th Street line to Riggs Ro then to I-95, and out in that direction. Under the regional syste being studied there are in effect three extensions for Prince Georg County and two for Montgomery.

Mr. GUDE. You said that in Chicago the differences in maximu headway time or time between trains is six minutes.

What is the experience generally in other cities of the country Is there some sort of rule of thumb as to the most desirable head wa time for adequate services?

Mr. MCCARTER. Six minutes is about the maximum until late a night. Half hour service is sufficient in some places-very late a night. Generally, during the day, six minutes is about the maximum allowable time between trains on a subway system.

Mr. WHITENER. Mr. Broyhill?

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. McCarter, I haven't checked validity of thi study and survey that was done. But at the time we got the legisla tion through authorizing this facility we were impressed with the validity of the study that was made at that point.

Mr. Whitener and myself and others had a problem at the time convincing our colleagues that this was a very sound proposal that we were recommending to the House. What would be the answer to a question by some of these colleagues that have long memories when you folks thought you were pretty sure you had a pretty good system a few years ago.

What has happened?

Mr. MCCARTER. My answer is that when I have new information which is compelling me to change my mind I will change my mind. That is what I did when I got the new information not only with respect to Columbia Heights but with respect to the entire project in the Southwest area. In 1962 you had before you a plan to have service down here. But at that time the projection was for 35,000 or 40,000 employees in Southwest Washington.

But go down there now and look at all the new construction. The projection now is for 87,000 employees in this small area shown on the chart (Exhibit D).

Mr. BROYHILL. That is the actual change in the construction program area?

Mr. MCCARTER. That's right. Nobody imagined the extent of the public and private development in Southwest; L'Enfant Plaza and all those Government buildings. This small area will have more employees than all of downtown Baltimore, all of downtown Seattle, all of downtown Pittsburgh-just in this one area.

Mr. WHITENER. That area being the Southwest Mall area.
Mr. MCCARTER. Yes, south of Independence Avenue.

Mr. BROYHILL. You show on your map (Exhibit B) that the subway lines cross. Those would be transfer points, would they not? Mr. MCCARTER. Yes; there is a transfer point at 12th and G and one at Farragut Square.

Mr. BROYHILL. Just from an engineering standpoint, that would not be more expensive than have the lines run parallel rather than crossing over twice?

Mr. MCCARTER. It makes a better transfer if you have it over and under. Incidentally, the modification permits an extra station on 15th

Street that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. There was no station between 12th and G and Connecticut and K on the authorized system. Because we couldn't put one right in front of the White House.

Mr. BROYHILL. I was thinking if, for instance, the Connecticut Avenue-Silver Spring line would cross over, that would come up—up there rather than down below?

Mr. MCCARTER. It would come this way?

Mr. BROYHILL. It wouldn't be that abrupt but again they would be running parallel to the transfer point. You say that

Mr. MCCARTER. I prefer an over and under transfer point.

Mr. BROYHILL. That would not be more expensive.

Mr. MCCARTER. I don't think so.

Mr. BROYHILL. One more question.

In the Virginia area, Pentagon City, at the time the original authorization was granted, Pentagon City did appear to be the greatest concentration of people or employment at that termination point. Mr. MCCARTER. Right.

Mr. BROYHILL. Same as the Independence Avenue area. The Pentagon City complex has actually developed and there are even more plans-just on the not only on the drawing board but financing arranged for tripling that existing construction.

I am wondering if it wouldn't be wise to consider the Crystal City as a termination point and then you are at the RF&P Railroad and also you are close to the airport that you talked about the other day at the early meeting to bring it into the terminal point.

Mr. MOČARTER. The Authority is making studies of that nature, yes. If the Authority were not in existence, then I might be coming in for a deviation to serve Crystal City and to provide a shuttle between the airport and that station. But the Authority is doing that.

Mr. BROYHILL. I wonder on the presumption that the Authority might be doing it and it might run a few years behind your program. I am talking about the suburbs.

Mr. McCARTER. Not necessarily.

Mr. BROYHILL. But in view of the fact that they will require a substantial contribution from the local governments out there, it may take a few years. I know this whole thing is planned on the basis of continuing as a suburban yet if there is a gap of a few years between the time of the suburban connection and the downtown structure, would it be wise to terminate at Crystal City?

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. Would you consider that?

Mr. MCCARTER. Congressman Broyhill, when you approve this system, you approve it substantially as shown.

I am making another site change which I didn't think was substantial enough to require authorization. We were advised it would be impossible to build a bridge across the Anacostia River next to the existing monumental bridge we found we can give better service by putting the bridge up at Benning Road and we can get better bus service and better parking.

That's a relatively minor change. Even with that change, the system would remain substantially as approved by Congress.

Mr. BROYHILL. I don't want to belabor this, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MCCARTER. Certainly when construction begins in the area, you mentioned, I think that will all be considered one project. Also, I think the pressure will be on to have service to the airport.

Mr. BROYHILL. I hope so.

Again, the point that I am trying to make is, if you got the subway over to Crystal City you are at the RF&P Railroad. I don't know whether the Authority plans using RF&P. If you got those rails located and that would certainly carry them to Alexandria.

Mr. MCCARTER. The route they are studying does come down to the RF&P; rapid transit is being studied to run alongside the RF&P. Mr. BROYHILL. You don't want to go down to the RF&P now on the present plan?

Mr. MCCARTER. That depends on whether the Virginia people want to have interim service on the RF&P as a commuter service rather than as rapid transit service.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is all.

Mr. WHITENER. Mr. Fuqua.

Mr. FUQUA. Mr. McCarter, what is the employee concentration count on the mall area? You touched on it just briefly. I believe that is shown on the map there. What is the employee concentration there? How many more people would you serve on this new route in this southwest area than is proposed by the authorized route?

Mr. MCCARTER. On the authorized route you wouldn't be servicing the Southwest Mall area directly. The employees there would have to come to 12th and G, or 8th and G, and then take a bus down to this area. The volume is such that 120 buses would be required on G Street during the rush hour to serve the transfers from those two stations. If people take a bus to the rapid transit and then take another bus to get to their destination, I am afraid they won't do it.

Mr. FUQUA. You said there were 87,000

Mr. MCCARTER. There will be in 1980, as is shown on our Exhibit D. Mr. FUQUA. Under this new survey how many of those people would use the rapid transit?

Mr. MCCARTER. Mr. Herman will answer. He is the Director of the N.C.T.A. planning staff.

Mr. HERMAN. The modified system that Mr. McCarter described would produce over 22 million riders a year. How many of these would come from the Independence area can be computed very quickly. I don't have the specific number at the moment. There would be more than 22 million additional riders annually, however.

Mr. FUQUA. Additional?

Mr. HERMAN. That is right...

Mr. FUQUA. New proposed riders?

Mr. HERMAN. That is right-as a result of this line and the stations. in the southwest area. I will give you that figure in a minute.

Mr. MCCARTER. Congressman, in my statement on page 6, I pointed out these studies show that in 1980 the modified system will attract 12,000 more riders than the authorized system in the peak hour. Mr. FUQUA. Per day?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is the peak hour--70,000 additional riders per day.

Mr. FUQUA. How many would use it under the present authorized route?