H. OF R.] Coins and Currency. (MARCH 20, 1832. dred and fifty thousand dollars upon a small note circula- small notes before the legislative prohibition, showed the tion of ten millions continued for one hundred years. loss to be nearly what he estimated it. The heaviest loss, The second item of loss to the public was forgery. Small however, it might be remarked, would not be sustained notes were generally the subject of forgeries. They were upon the notes of city banks, for which, when worn, spe more readily passed, were taken with less examination, cie or a new note might be readily demanded, but upon and circulated among a class of persons less competent to those of distant institutions, to which a return of the muti detect them. The-injury, of course, fell most heavily up- lated note could not be easily effected as soon as it be on the laboring class. Mr. W. estimated the loss to the came uncurrent. He would not enter into the details of public, arising from this source, at one-fourth of one per calculations which the returns from these banks exhibit cent. per annum on ten millions of dollars for one hun- ed. He had trespassed too much in that way already, and dred years. This amounted to two millon five hundred it was the less necessary, as they might be seen by refer thousand dollars. He admitted that this item could not ence to the statements and estimates which he should ask be very exactly calculated. The only authentic informa- to have printed by order of the House. One other piece tion he had met with, was in the report on forgeries made of testimony he had obtained through the kindness of the by a committee of the Commons House of Parliament, of Speaker. It was a statement of the issues of corporation which Sir James McIntosh was chairman, in 1819. Ac-notes by a neighboring city, with the amounts still out cording to the testimony of Basil Montague, Esq. given standing, their circulation having been stopped in 1820 or before that committee, the number of forged notes of 1821. This was also among the documents he wished one pound in circulation, was printed, and exhibited a loss much more considerable, £10,342 amounting indeed to four per cent. per annum on the 14,000 and upwards. change bills, and one and a half per cent. on the small notes. In 1814, 1815, 21,000 28,000 One-fourth of one per cent. per annum on a circulation of ten millions of small notes, for one hundred years, would The forgeries were almost all of Bank of England notes, be two million five hundred thousand dollars. These three and the notes of the Bank of England under five pounds, items of loss, by the insolvency of banks issuing small in circulation in 1816 and 1817, did not exceed eight and notes, by forgery, and by the destruction of genuine notes, a half millions: twenty-eight thousand pounds, on a circu- made up the direct loss or charge to the public on a small lation of eight and a half millions, considering all below note circulation of ten millions, maintained for one hun five pounds as one pound notes, would be more than five- dred years, and constituted an aggregate of sixteen million sixteenths of one per cent. He supposed the proportion two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. of forgeries might be somewhat less in this country. It The loss, or rather charge, to the banks issuing them, was probably somewhat more in England, as the re- must next be considered. To keep ten millions of small turns of forgeries were only of one pound notes, and of notes in circulation, the banks, if they regarded their own these, he presumed, such only as had been detected at credit or the public safety, should keep at least three mil bank or prosecuted, while the circulation of eight millions lions and a third in specie in their vaults, to answer any and a half was that of all the Bank of England notes under call upon them in consequence of their issue of small notes. five pounds, no distinction being made in the returns be- It might be true that the banks very frequently did not tween one and two pound notes. It was true, however, do this. It was one of the evils of the system that they that by far the greater part of the Bank of England notes did not. If they put out ten paper dollars in dollar bills under five pounds were of the former description. Every for every silver dollar they had, when the excessive issues thing considered, he had thought an allowance of one- produced an unfavorable state of exchange and conse fourth of one per cent. per annum, for loss to the public quent demand for specie, they must call in ten dollars of by forgeries, on a small note currency of ten millions, their notes for every dollar of their silver which was ex would not be far from the truth, and this, for one hundred ported. The degree to which the evil was thus aggr years, amounted to two million five hundred thousand vated must be perceived and appreciated. Supposing dollars. them to keep the due proportion of silver above indicated, The next item to be taken into the account was the loss or one-third, which would still impose upon them the ne or destruction of small notes. This he had reason to believe cessity of calling in three for one, they must lose the was generally overrated. He himself, when he began the interest on three and one-third millions of specie at sis investigation of this subject, certainly regarded it as much per cent. for one hundred years, which was two hundred larger than it proved to be on closer examination, and thousand dollars per annum; and for a hundred years such he found the prevailing opinion among those with twenty millions. The next item of charge to which the whom he conversed. The loss arising to the public from banks were subjected, was the cost of issuing the small this source he estimated at one-fourth of one per cent. per notes. These notes lasted only from one to three years. annum, after a careful consideration of the different facts At first, when a stamp duty was imposed in England on bank notes, they were required to be cancelled every The whole amount of the issues of the late Bank of the three years. But, some time afterwards, the law was United States might, according to very satisfactory infor- changed, Parliament, upon full investigation, becoming mation, be safely estimated at eighty millions of dollars, satisfied that the small notes did not last more than three and its average circulation during the twenty years of its years. The corporation notes of Washington, he had existence at something upwards of four millions. The heard, did not last much if any thing beyond a year. He total amount of its notes of every description now out- estimated the average existence (if he might be allowed standing, he had ascertained to be two hundred and five the expression) of small notes at two years and a half. thousand dollars. This would make the loss upwards of The ten millions of dollars in small notes of different de one-fourth of one per cent. per annum on circulation of nominations would, in number, be about seven million five four millions. It was to be observed, also, that the late hundred thousand notes. Bank of the United States issued no notes below ten dol- every two years and a half, rendered forty emiss ons ne These requiring to be renewed lars; but, perhaps, from various causes which would im- cessary in a hundred years. mediately occur to the House, the loss now would be million five hundred thousand notes made three hundred Forty emissions of seven somewhat less than it was then. The loss on notes of five millions of notes. dollars and under, it was admitted on all hands, would be cording to the best information he could obtain from The cost of making these notes, ac greater in proportion. Information, obtained from re. banks and artists, would amount to at least six millions, spectable banking institutions in Philadelphia which issued and was calculated from the following data: Ten thousand he had been enabled to collect. It Loss by abrasion, one-tenth of one per cent. Lost pieces, and counterfeit coin, one-twen- [H. of R. $1,000,000 500,000 impressions might be taken from a plate. It would then porting six and two-thirds millions of specie at three per require to be retouched. This, he understood, could be cent. would be two hundred thousand dollars. The whole done only once. Twenty thousand impressions, there- cost or charge to the banks of maintaining a small note fore, were all one plate would furnish. The plate con- currency of ten millions for a hundred years, therefore, tained four notes. The engraving of each note on copper was twenty-six million two hundred thousand dollars. The cost fifty dollars: that was two hundred dollars a plate. loss to the public, by the same currency, was already The retouching was fifty dollars a plate. Each twenty shown to be sixteen million two hundred and fifty thouthousand impressions, therefore, required an expense in sand dollars. These two sums, added together, gave the plates of two hundred and fifty dollars. Steel plates cost whole loss and charge of keeping up a small note circulaabout three times as much as copper, but lasted nearly tion of that amount, for that period, which was, if he had ten times as long. The bank note paper cost from twenty committed no errors, forty-two million four hundred and to thirty dollars per thousand sheets, each sheet contain- fifty thousand dollars. ing eight notes; that is, at twenty-four dollars, the cost of To institute a comparison between the two kinds of curpaper for twenty thousand notes, which would require rency, in an economical point of view, it was necessary, two thousand five hundred sheets, would amount to sixty next, to compute the cost of supporting a metallic currendollars. The printing cost sixty dollars per thousand cy of ten millions for one hundred years; which he had sheets, viz. seven dollars and fifty cents per thousand done, as follows: notes. Each twenty thousand notes, therefore, would cost four hundred and sixty dollars; each million, twentythree thousand; and the whole three hundred millions, six million nine hundred thousand dollars. This, the House would perceive, was exclusive of any portion of clerk hire, or any of the other expenses of management. was exclusive, also, of another expense incident to a small note circulation. Now and then it became requisite, in consequence of a well executed forgery, to call in and 100,000 cancel a whole impression. This would require an extra number of new plates; but as this expense was an irregu- Cost of a specie circulation, $41,600,000 lar and contingent one, he had not inserted it in his esti- It seemed, then, if there was no mistake or delusion in mate. It might occur once, perhaps, in ten years. He the principle or detail of these calculations, however surhad received another estimate, which computed each small prising it might at first appear, that a small note circulanote at two cents. This made the three hundred millions tion was as expensive, or nearly as expensive, as a metalof notes cost six millions of dollars; and, being some-lic one. Perhaps it would be strictly correct to say more what less than the other, and a round number, he had expensive, but he desired to avoid all propositions which adopted it, though probably less accurate. That he had were so startling as to seem paradoxical. The banks, to not over-estimated the cost of these notes, the error he be sure, for the cost and charge which they incurred, of was most anxious to avoid in all his calculations, would, he $26,200,000, were more than indemnified by the interest thought, be apparent from a comparison of his computa- of 60,000,000 which they drew from the people upon the tion with the actual cost of the treasury notes issued by small notes. the United States. Through the politeness of a most intelligent and valuable officer, the Chief Clerk of the Treasury Department, he had obtained a statement of the actual cost of treasury notes. It was as follows: For engraving plates for a note of each denomination, For retouching do. For printing, per thousand, For paper, per thousand, For trimming and filling up, per thousand, Interest lost on six and two-thirds millions of They indeed gained by the operation $33,800,000. But the people obtained no indemnity whatever for the $16,250,000 which they lost by insolvency, forgery, and the destruction of notes, before stated. The result of the small note currency, therefore, was that the banks gained $150 00 by it 33,000,000, while the people lost by it 16,000,000: and the effect and operation of it was to tax the people 75 00 16,000,000, that the banks might make thirty. It might, indeed, be said that what was gained by the banks, was 30 00 gained by the individuals who were stockholders, and, as 37 00 an addition to the wealth of individuals belonging to the 20 00 nation, must be an increase of the national wealth. With12 50 out pausing to inquire how far a nation might be said to be richer in consequence of bank dividends drawn by one 99 50 portion of its citizens from another, for the interest or hire A plate would print 10,000, 1-10 of $150, 15 00 of paper money manufactured by the former and borrowed by the latter, let it be conceded that the gain of the Cost of 1,000 notes, $114 50 banks was a national gain. Then the loss by the people Which was nearly eleven cents and a half a note. But was also a national loss. The whole amount to which the nathis included the trimming, filling up, and signing. Upon tion was benefited was the difference between 33,000,000 the whole, then, with every disposition to make a very low which the banks gained, and 16,000,000 which the people estimate, he thought six millions of dollars for the cost of the lost. 17,000,000, therefore, in a hundred years, or notes as little as any one who had examined the subject $170,000 per annum, was the utmost, which, upon any would say was reasonable. calculation, could be made out as the saving or profit arising The last item in the cost or charge of a small note cur- from the use of small notes. And for this paltry gain, it rency to the banks issuing it, was the expense of import- has been thought worth while to subject the country to ing or reimporting the six and two-thirds millions of specie the hot and cold fits of an intermittent currency; or, to which would be required for the redemption of their notes borrow his simile from a newer and more dreadful epiat the end of the hundred years. demic, the spasmodic contractions of the paper cholera. According to the whole train of reasoning pursued on But even this gain, small as it was, must be rendered still both sides, this sum, in coin, had gone out of the country, smaller if there were charged upon it a due proportion of or its use had been dispensed with, and its place supplied the expenses of the banks, such as rent, fuel, clerk hire, by the small notes, When the small notes were to be and incidental expenses. But if it were possible to estipaid off, the specie must be brought in. The cost of im-mate the degree to which commercial distress was aggra [MARCH 20, 1832. vated by the sudden revulsions incident to this species of the metal, and operate almost exclusively as the medium of circulation, he was sure the apparent gain would dwindle exchange.' In the debate in the British House of Cominto insignificance in comparison with the mighty loss mons in 1826, on the bill to prohibit small notes, Mr. Pecl, which indirectly resulted from it. Mr. Huskisson, and Mr. Canning, in support of the bill, One other observation, and he would dismiss this branch contended, "all experience proved that the restoration of of the subject. It might be said that the cost of paper, a metallic currency could not be effected so long as small plates, &c. was all an employment and encouragement to notes were allowed to be circulated; a permanent state of American industry, and was, therefore, to be fostered in cash payments could never exist by their side. If, in any preference of the employment of foreign labor engaged country, there be a paper currency, of the same denomiin mining for the precious metals. He would not limit nation with the metallic currency, the paper and the coin himself to the suggestion that the gold which, in his opi- will not circulate together, but the latter will be expelled nion, ought to be substituted for the small notes, was equal-by the former. If crown and half crown notes were issu ly a product of American industry with the plates and ed, crowns and half crowns would disappear, and if the paper by which small notes were made. He insisted that one pound notes continued to circulate, a sovereign would the silver of Peru and Mexico, purchased with the pro- become a rarity." These opinions were valuable, not so ducts of American labor, was itself as much a product of much because they were those of able and distinguished that labor as if it had been dug from the bowels of our statesmen, as because they had been confirmed by experiown soil. One branch of American industry would indeed ence. The small notes were prohibited, and England now be destroyed--the forging of small notes; but that, he enjoyed a specie circulation. On that occasion, Mr. Huspresumed, no one would say ought to be protected. kisson was particularly forcible in his remarks: he said, It might be asked, however, whence the necessity of "It was absurd to talk of a paper currency convertible restricting the issue of small notes? Could not the gold into gold, for the moment they introduced the paper they coinage be corrected, the supply of specie increased, and would banish the coin, except such coin as was of lower dethe coin and small notes circulate together? The answer nomination than the paper. It was impossible to retain was, it was impossible. In the commencement of his re- the present or any other amount of gold, except upon that marks, he had adverted to the law of circulation, and had condition; for if we returned to the issue of one pound intended to do no more. He had supposed it universally notes, we could not keep any coin in circulation which admitted. He did not imagine there was any honorable was not less in value than the pound sterling." gentleman there, who was ignorant of, or who doubted or Mr. W. would not abuse the patience of the House by denied it. As he had found, however, by conversation, further quotations; others equally respectable and unethat the conviction of this leading truth was not as strong quivocal were at hand; but he would content himself with upon the minds of some gentlemen, as, from its import- the general declaration, which he believed would be borne ance, it deserved to be, he would endeavor to sustain it by out by the minutest scrutiny, that every distinguished the aid of high authority. Dr. Wheatly, in his excellent statesman and political economist of late years distinctly work on the Theory of Money and Principles of Commerce, admitted the coin and the paper would not circulate topublished in 1807, says: "One of the leading objections gether. This they did indifferently whether they were to the encouragement of private paper is, that it is princi- bullionists or anti-bullionists; the one contending for pally composed of small notes, which invariably occasion the superiority of gold over paper, and the other for that the banishment of specie." In another passage, he adds: of paper over the gold, but both admitting a concurrent "No small notes have been issued, but from the mistaken circulation was impossible. It was upon a full examination policy of finding a substitute for specie, already in a state of this matter, therefore, that the Committee on Coins of of scarcity from an excessive utterance of paper. The the last session reported their fifth and sixth proposition, further accumulation, therefore, of the quantity by an edi- at least insofar as concerned the simultaneous circulation tion of small notes, has uniformily aggravated instead of of paper and the precious metals. mitigated the evil, and caused an immediate departure of 5th. That gold and silver will not circulate promisthe remaining proportion." And, subsequently, he de- cuously and concurrently for similar purposes of disburseclares: "Exclusively, therefore, of the policy of assigning ment; nor can coins of either metal be sustained in circua limit to the publication of paper, for the purpose of lation with bank notes, possessing public confidence, of counteracting the depression of money, and enabling it to the like denominations." form a more durable measure of the same value, the pri vilege of issues should be withdrawn from private banks, were no other beneficial object to result from it than the abolition of small notes and the readmission of coin in the currency of Europe." Mr. Lowndes, a patriot and states- Entertaining little doubt, therefore, that the object proman of the first order, one who united the purest princi- posed by his resolution was a desirable one, namely, to ples with the soundest judgment, in his report on coins in increase the relative specie circulation of the country by 1819, had the following remarks on the East India trade, suppressing the small note currency, the next point of inthen commonly believed to be the great drain of specie: quiry was as to the means by which it should be effected. "When the States of America had no trade to the East In- He had suggested a duty on small notes, in which he had dies, but a full paper circulation, they were destitute of only pursued the hint thrown out by Mr. Gallatin, to whose silver. Whenever the trade has existed without the pa- essay, indeed, he was in every respect largely indebted. per, specie has been abundant; and scarce always where It had led him to investigate a very curious and intricate the paper has existed, either with or without the trade. subject; though far from venturing any theory of his own, We must conclude that when the precious metals become he had only been induced by his researches to offer some scarce, while the price of foreign and domestic produc- novel illustrations, and to urge some practical results. tions continues high, their scarcity results not from the For every thing he had advanced, he was under obligacountry being unable to procure or retain them, but from tions to Mr. Gallatin, and was perfectly willing to forego its choosing to employ a substitute for their use. all claim, not merely to the merit of originality, but to any other merit whatever, if he could prevail upon the House to adopt the resolution, and institute the proposed inquiry. Mr. Mill, in his Elements of Political Economy, speaking of paper currency, says: "As soon as the use of such a substitute for money has begun, nothing is wanting but freedom, and the confidence of the public in the written promises, to enable the paper to supersede the use of "6th. That, if the national interest or convenience should require the permanent use of gold eagles, and their parts, and also of silver dollars, the issue of bank bills of one, two, three, five, and ten dollars, must be prohibited.” Huskisson's speeches, vol. 3, pages 350, 351 L. MARCH 20, 1832.] Coins and Currency. Mr. Gallatin himself had insisted strongly on the banishment of the small notes, and had indicated a duty upon them as the appropriate means of effecting that end. It would be doing great injustice to that distinguished statesman to give his argument in any other words than his own. Congress has the power to lay stamp duties on notes, on bank notes, and on any description of bank notes. That power has already been exercised, and the duties may be laid to such an amount, and in such a manner, as may be necessary to effect the object intended. This object is not merely to provide generally for the general welfare, but to carry into effect, in conformity with the last paragraph of the eighth section of the first article, those several and express provisions of the constitution which vest in Congress, exclusively, the control over the monetary system of the United States, and more particularly those which imply the necessity of a uniform currency. The exercise of the power for that object is free of any constitutional objection, provided the duties thus laid shall be uniform, and applied to the Bank of the United States as well as to the State banks. The power of laying and collecting duties, which is expressly granted, is alone sufficient to effect the object.' The power of laying duties upon bank notes had been twice exercised by Congress. Mr. W. referred gentlemen to the act of 1797, chap. 11, 3 vol. of Bioren's Laws United States, p. 10, and the act of 1813, chap. 581, Laws United States, 4 vol. p. 619, 620. Both acts imposed a stamp duty, and authorized the Secretary of the Treasury to commute it with the banks, in consideration of the payment of a certain amount upon their annual dividends, viz. one per cent. by the first act, one and a half by the second. Regarded as a tax, no tax could be fairer. It was, perhaps, the only certain mode in which the people could be indemnified for the loss they sustained by the small notes, and was, in effect, a tax on bankers' profits. Considered as a prohibition, it was, in his opinion, clearly authorized by the sections of the constitution referred to by Mr. Gallatin. {H. OF R. this topic, however, he would modify the resolution so as to call for it. Mr. W. did not expect or desire that any act imposing a duty on small notes should pass at the present session. He deprecated crude and hasty legislation upon this or any other subject. It was possible the States would take the question up. He hoped they would. It was much more desirable, if it were practicable, that the reform should go on there. But if it could not, he was not disposed to surrender or neglect the constitutional control of that House over the currency. He wished to proceed, step by step, with public opinion. But he wished, also, to afford public opinion the best means of information, and that could probably be most effectually accomplished by discussions and inquiries there. It was to be apprehended that the attempt to suppress the circulation of small notes would meet with some opposition at first. As the operation of the measure came to be more generally understood, its wisdom, he thought, would be more generally admitted. The restoration of a specie circulation for the whole retail trade of the country, was of great consequence, not merely on account of its direct but its incidental effects; in promoting a sound and healthy state of the currency; in maintaining a copious reserve of the precious metals for seasons of extraordinary pressure; in preserving the poor from loss by frauds and forgeries; but, above all, by checking overtrading and overissues of paper, its effect, he thought, would be highly salutary. He trusted the recent experience of France and England, and, indeed, this country, on the subject of a paper currency, would not be lost. He It was, he thought, so clearly the interest of the people to restore a specie circulation, and exclude the small notes, that little opposition need be expected from them. anticipated some resistance, indeed, from the banks who had, or fancied they had, an interest in opposing it. Their interest undoubtedly was to keep up as large a circulation of their paper as was consistent with their own safety. But the cupidity of some, and the imprudence of others, were continually urging them beyond the limits of security; and the temptation held out to all by the fatal facility of putting into circulation a large amount of small notes, was not easily resisted. Excessive issues, however, invariably cause overtrading; failure of their customers; a revulsion of the currency; general distress; and frequently bankruptcy of the banks themselves. The choice, then, was between a smaller circulation, lower dividends, fewer vicissitudes, and greater security; and a larger circulation, increased but uncertain and irregular dividends, frequent revulsions, and constant apprehension. Between these, the institutions most wisely and prudently conducted would not hesitate, and the wishes or opinions of the others ought not to be much regarded. Into that question, however, he would not enter gratuitously. It was a mere inquiry which he proposed, and, of course, it would be the duty of the committee making it to inquire as well into the constitutional power of Congress, as the expediency of so exercising it. He did not intend to inquire into the propriety of using any but an unquestionable power. It was not enough that the end was desirable, the means must be lawful. But in effecting a beneficial object by legitimate means, he was not prepared to stop short, because the private interest of banks, or bankers, or stockholders, might be affected or involved. It was the public interest alone which he regarded. He had demonstrated, he thought, that the people at large were losers by a small note currency. As soon as this was perfectly understood by them, they would, no doubt, apply Mr. W. begged to be permitted a word of explanation the proper corrective in some shape. An honorable respecting the direction he proposed to give the resolugentleman from New York, for whose opinions he had tion. The inquiry would seem most naturally to belong great respect, [Mr. C. P. WHITE,] had suggested to him to the Committee of Ways and Means, and he had directed the expediency of inserting in the charter of the Bank of the resolution to the Committee on Coins. This he did, the United States a clause prohibiting the issue of all bills because the subject was intimately connected with the inunder twenty dollars, and, at the same time, providing quiries in which that committee were engaged respecting that the bank should not receive in payment or deposite, the gold and silver coin, and because he desired to sepaon account of the United States, the bills (of any denomi- rate, as far as possible, the matters embraced in his resonation) issued by banks which emitted small notes. He lution, from the smallest even apparent connexion with [Mr. W.] doubted whether the desired effect would be pro- the absorbing question of the recharter of the Bank of duced by such a provision; and was certain that, unless the United States, on which the Committee of Ways and the State banks could also be prevented, by some legitimate exercise of power by Congress, from issuing any bills of a lower denomination than those permitted to the Bank of the United States, the only effect would be to substitute, to a certain extent, a worse paper currency for If any gentleman desired an inquiry into a better one. 'Considerations on the Currency, &c. p. 75. VOL. VIII.140 Means had reported. He desired to keep the questions distinct. They were only thus far connected: if the Bank of the United States, or a bank similar in its effects, were not continued, the measures contemplated by the resolution he had offered, were, in his opinion, indispensable to save the currency from speedy, extreme, and dangerous deterioration. If the bank was preserved, with such modifications as experience had suggested, these measures H. OF R.] Live Oak Report.-Insolvent Debtors. [MARCH 20, 1832. INSOLVENT DEBTORS. The House resumed the unfinished business of yester day, being the bill explanatory of the law for the relief of certain insolvent debtors of the United States. The bill was extensively debated, and occupied the House during the residue of the day. alone would probably be sufficient to render our monetary system permanently sound, and to give it all the advantages which any thing less than a currency almost exclusively metallic could possess. One thing, at least, seemed certain. The present condition of our coinage and currency could not be permitted to continue. What was it? With a new mint, which cost a hundred and seventy thousand dollars, and the annual expense of which would be forty or forty-ed to strike out the second section of the bill;) and therefive thousand dollars, we could not keep an American eagle or dollar in circulation. With a coinage of six millions, we were without a lawful specie currency; since Spanish dollars were no longer to be seen, our own coin was exported, and the coins of the new American States were not, by law, a tender in payment of debts. By the delay in coining we imposed a tax on the conversion of bullion into coin, equal to one-half or three-fourths of one per cent., from which the Government derived no benefit. And, with gold mines producing largely upwards of half a million, we persisted in valuing that metal lower than most of the European States, while we continued a wretched small note currency, at an actual loss to the people of a hundred and sixty or seventy thousand dollars annually. LIVE OAK REPORT. The SPEAKER laid before the House a communication from the Navy Department on the subject of the live oak lands, in reply to a call moved some time since by Mr. BRANCH. Mr. CARSON suggested the propriety of referring the communication, should it be necessary to commit it at all, to the Committee on Naval Affairs. Mr. PEARCE moved that it be laid on the table, and printed. Mr. FOSTER withdrew his amendment (which propos upon Mr. McDUFFIE moved to add to the second section the following proviso: "Provided, That no debtor of the Government shall be entitled to the benefit of this act, or of the act of which it is an amendment, unless it shall be made to appear to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Treasury that such debtor has been discharged or relieved from imprisonment under the insolvent laws of the State in which he resides, or of any other State; or that he would be entitled to be discharged or relieved from imprisonment under the insolvent laws of the State in which he resides, or of any other State; or that he would be entitled to be discharged or released from imprisonment by the insolvent laws of the State in which he may reside, upon application to the proper authorities thereof; or that he has been honorably discharged by his creditors, or such portion of them as hold three-fourths of the debts due by said debtor on the 1st day of June, 1831." Mr. McD. briefly explained his amendment, and the rea sons which had induced him to offer it. Mr. ELLSWORTH went into an examination of the several clauses of the proviso, to all which he was opposed as being difficult, if not impossible, to be complied with, and bearing with harshness upon a set of unfortunate men. Mr. McDUFFIE thereupon modified his amendment so as, in some degree, to mitigate its most rigid features. Mr. REED objected to having any reference to the laws Mr. CAMBRELENG moved its reference to a select of the States. committee. Mr. WAYNE addressed the House for some time in opposition to the proviso, which he considered as likely, in its practical operations, to defeat the very purposes of the law. Mr. MITCHELL, of South Carolina, took the opposite side, contending that the proviso was perfectly reasona ble, and not so harsh as the ordinary provisions of bankrupt laws. Mr. BRANCH requested Mr. PEARCE to withdraw his motion, which being done, he observed, that, as a member of the Naval Committee, he had felt it his duty to move the call to which this was a reply. He had done so without the intention of injury to any one. The House would doubtless recollect something of what had transpired, and of the matters introduced by way of amendment Mr. HUNTINGTON objected to the proviso, as going to the call. The subject might seem, to some, to possess to treat the debtors of the United States in an unequal no national interest, but he believed all who heard him manner, since the bankrupt laws of some States required would concur in the opinion that it was a subject of great a great deal more from the debtor than those of others. interest to himself; and, if his personal wishes were to be taken into the account, he should certainly prefer the appointment of a select committee. He knew that the Committee on Naval Affairs would be the most appropriate committee for the consideration of such a document, but as he belonged to that committee, he should be better pleased with some other reference. Mr. CAMBRELENG said that he desired it to be understood that in moving for a select committee he had no wish to be included within those of whom it should be composed. Mr. SHEPPERD supported the motion for a select committee, and moved the following instructions: "To inquire whether the Attorney General has been consulted as to the validity of the titles to the lands purchased of the honorable Joseph M. White; and if any opinion has been given by that officer, to call for it; likewise, to call on the department for the returns of the live oak agents since the 28th February, 1832, and the accounts rendered by them; also, to call for all the correspondence which may have taken place on the subject of the resolution adopted by the House in relation to the live oak lands since the 28th February, 1832." Mr. CAMBRELENG offering no objections, the instructions were agreed to, and the committee ordered to consist of seven. Mr. PENDLETON confirmed the view taken by Mr. HUNTINGTON, by statements in reference to the New York bankrupt laws. Mr. IHRIE was warmly in favor of the proviso, without which he could not vote for the bill. He was not much in its favor in any shape, as it was an act of partial legslation, and if passed would probably prevent a general bankrupt law. Mr. DRAYTON believed the intentions of all the menbers in reference to this class of unfortunate debtors were substantially the same; but, in guarding against one evil, he thought they were introducing another which was greater. Mr. ELLSWORTH replied to Mr. IHRIE. Mr. DODDRIDGE suggested some legal difficulties in cases where the property of the debtor was secured by mortgage, decrees in equity, &c. Mr. IHRIE insisted upon the view he had before taken, which he explained more at large. Mr. McDUFFIE, having called for the reading of a part of the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, (in which that officer takes the position that it would be useless and improper for the United States to release its claim upon a debtor, unless his other creditors would do the same,) went into a general reply to the objections which had been made to his amendment, insisting on the unguarded conditions of the rights of the United States, in cases where indivi |