Mr. MONROE, of Dubuque: I hesitate to present to this meeting any remarks upon a subject about which we can know so little. But I have read views expressed by hydraulic engineers which have suggested to my mind, very crudely, that the remedy for this great evil, and the great good to be accomplished by reclaiming this land, is not in the raising of levees. I have seen it stated that as you raise the banks on each side, and hold in the water, the channel of the river fills up, and thus the river is raised higher and higher, and the liability to break over is greater and greater. Now, I understand the topography of the country to be such that as the water flows over the banks of the Mississippi, it seeks on each side a level considerably lower than the banks; consequently, it never can come back again. The remedy which occurs to my mind as the one which will meet all these difficulties is, first, to adopt Mr. ELLET's plan, if practicable, (which can only be ascertained by hydraulic engineers,) the holding back of the water in the lakes and rivers and fountains that feed the Mississippi in a flood, and letting it out when the water is low; and then having sluices or locks at proper places when the water is still too high, by which it could be let out and collected into appropriate channels or canals parallel with the river, and thus carried out to the gulf. These thoughts I present with diffidence, but having read the views of that eminent hydraulic engineer on the subject, and criticisms and reviews by others, and having read some reports from official sources, showing the facility with which a very small expenditure of money can be used to hold back a very large body of water in the lakes that feed the Mississippi, I venture to submit them. If this thing be practical, then not only the lower ground on each side of the Mississippi can be improved, and the tendency of the Mississippi to overflow be checked, but when the upper streams want more water for navigation purposes, this great system applied wherever it is applicable, will let the water out wherever it is wanted, and we shall have good navigation upon the upper streams; and the flood of water which now breaks the banks of the Mississippi when there is a surplus will find its way through artificial channels, instead of making marshes and swamps twenty miles wide, down to the gulf.

Now, there is one proposition which I have seen presented with considerable force from Louisiana, that the water which flows out of the Mississippi and the Red river, I believe it is, into the gulf, considerably west of New Orleans, is now, with some little improvement, a navigable stream that takes us from this city into the gulf west of New Orleans, by a shortened channel of three hundred miles. If that is practicable-and I saw an account not long since, of a

steamboat that came through that channel, and came up to this city—it seems to me that on the side of the Mississippi, for the greater part of this distance, the same thing would be practicable, and the waters which now seek a lower level than the banks of the Mississippi, might be collected, instead of drowning that rich land, and would furnish a cheap channel by which the products of the country could be carried up and down, and into the Mississippi river, wherever it is convenient. I would suggest, therefore, without making a motion, that we are not prepared, not being hydraulic engineers, and not having had surveys and estimates sufficient to form the basis of a judgment, to express an opinion upon the subject; and that Congress should be asked to make an appropriation, and direct surveys with a view to ascertain the most feasible and practicable way of improving the navigation of the upper waters of the Mississippi and their tributaries, and of redeeming the land that is now flooded from Cairo down to the gulf. I believe that is the solution of the difficulty which will ultimately be arrived at. But we are not now well enough informed on the subject, and even competent hydraulic engineers have expressed diverse opinions upon it. I remember reading not long since in Mr. BURWELL'S paper of a proposition which was supported by thirteen eminent engineers, and opposed by nine others equally eminent, with apparently conclusive arguments on each side. It seems to me, therefore, that no satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at on this question, without a survey being made under Government direction, with a view to the improvement of this river at Government expense. opposed to taxing the people there when we shall get as much benefit as they will. The whole country will be benefited. We shall, if this scheme is practicable, redeem one hundred millions of dollars worth of valuable lands, which will be an additional national advantage, and give the upper waters of the Mississippi an improved navigation. I think we should hesitate to determine upon any plan, but simply ask the Government of the United States to make proper inquiries and surveys in regard to the matter, that there may be a proper conclusion arrived at when more information has been obtained.

I am

Mr. BURWELL: I only wish to remind the body, that the question is upon the amendment. If that amendment is adopted, then a further amendment will be in order.

Mr. OPDYKE, of New York: I am in favor of the amendment now before the Board. I think the gentleman from New Orleans has given very sufficient reasons why that amendment should be adopted. The improvement of the levees of the Mississippi will enure mainly

to the benefit of that city. That gentleman has told us that it already pays two-thirds of the taxation of the whole State, and it will probably receive almost that proportion of the benefits received from the improvement of the levees and the improvement of our commerce; for that reason, I think, the amendment is a very proper one.

But while upon my feet, I desire to say a few words upon the general subject. It seems to me that the proposition before the Board descends too much into detail; that the interests of that section of the country, and, incidentally, the interests of our whole country will be promoted by the prevention of those disastrous overflows which are continually taking place upon every flood in the river. There can be no doubt, furthermore, that the devastations of the war and the financial embarrassments that ensued thereafter, have left those States in a condition so impoverished that it will be difficult for them to bring about this improvement with the promptitude which the conditions require. I think, therefore, that it would be very proper for the government of the United States, in some way, to loan its credit to these States, upon conditions which should seem to the General Government to insure them from ultimate loss, in order that this improvement may be promptly made, and made in such a manner as the parties immediately interested shall determine. It is not for us to say what that method shall be. The experience of nearly a century has led the people there to believe that the preservation of the levees, leaving the bayous as sluiceways to take off the extra flood-tides in the spring-freshets, is the best and safest way; and, so far as I have been able to form a judgment, from having been a resident of that section in the early part of my life, I have no doubt that that is the best way to accomplish the object. But that is a question for the Government of the United States, and for the parties interested to decide. Therefore, all I should deem it expedient for us to do, would be to recommend that the Government loan its credit to the States interested, under such restrictions as shall satisfy it, that it will not incur any ultimate loss. That would seem to be judicious and proper action on the part of our Government, and I am prepared to recommend that; but to recommend a specific plan of any kind would be to go into a matter which is first to be presented to and adjusted by the States in interest, and then considered by the Government of the United States.

Mr. WETHERILL, of Philadelphia: I rise with a great deal of embarrassment in the discussion of this question, because we really know but little about it. It is very important, however, for us, before we can properly understand the subject, in my opinion, to

know whether the reclaiming of the land or the improvement of the levees, will improve the navigation of the river. If it will improve the navigation of the Mississippi, in my opinion it becomes a national question, and in that case I think it would be wise for us to recommend national aid. But if it is merely to reclaim waste lands, it seems to me to be a question whether or not the States themselves should not make the improvement and reclaim the land.

Again, sir, I doubt very much the propriety of the Government of the United States loaning its credit to any State. If this is a national matter, then the Government of the United States should take it in hand, have the necessary surveys made, furnish the money, and do the work. I know but little about the condition of those States, but I am told that they are not in a condition to meet the interest of the additional amount of debt that would be placed upon them by the improvement of those levees. I understand that it would amount to twenty-five million dollars. One of the States, if I am correctly informed, a little while ago considered an amendment to its Constitution, that up to the year 1890, the debt of the State should not exceed twenty-five million dollars. If one of these States, already largely in debt, saw fit to favor, and perhaps to adopt, an amendment to its Constitution, that its debt should not exceed twenty-five million dollars, and it is already, perhaps, very close to it, it seems to me that we should not ask it to promise to pay an additional sum to the amount of the interest upon ten million dollars. Take another State —Arkansas—with a population of four hundred and fifty thousand./ That State is also asked to issue its bonds, and to agree to pay the interest upon the amount of five million dollars. That State has already pledged its credit to railroads and other improvements, to the amount of eleven million dollars, and that added to the present State debt, would run it up to some fifteen million dollars. As to the finances of the State, I know but little, but I am satisfied from its condition, holding as it does to-day, I am told, two million acres of land for unpaid taxes, that it is in no condition to assume this extra burden. When I look at this condition of things, and when I see these embarrassments, I am very loth indeed to ask the people of those three States, already taxed to their utmost, to assume the obligation to pay the additional interest upon so large an amount as twenty-five million dollars. I do not oppose the measure because I do not understand it in its length and breadth. If it is necessary to spend twenty-five million dollars for the improvement of the navigation of the Mississippi river, and the reclaiming of these lands comes in as incidental, then sir, it will meet my hearty support; then I should be satisfied to vote for a proposition to ask the Government

not to loan its credit, but to go to work and cause its engineers to see that the proper surveys are made, and to pay the expenses directly from the Treasury of the United States, instead of asking the people, already embarrassed by their indebtedness, to meet any of those expenses. I understand that a movement has been made in that direction, and if that is so I hope that we shall not agree to place any additional tax upon a people already overburdened. I notice in a Washington paper, under date of November 20, the following: "The Committee appointed at the last session of Congress, to examine the condition of the Mississippi levees, have performed their duty, and will submit a report to Congress at the approaching session, recommending that this work of keeping the levees in order, be organized into a system, under the control of and supported by the National Government, and that a Bureau of Levees be created in the War Department, under charge of competent engineers, to attend to this matter." It strikes me that this is leaving it in proper hands. I am told, and if I am wrong I hope I shall be corrected, that a proposition has been made that the State of Louisiana advance three million dollars to a private company for this purpose.

Mr. BURWELL: That is not so.

Mr. WETHERILL: I understood it to be so. I will close as I began, by saying that if it can be clearly shown to me that this is a national matter, I shall vote for the expenditure of twenty-five million dollars by the Government; but with my present knowledge, I can never vote to saddle upon a people already overburdened, the interest upon such an enormous debt.

Mr. KIRKLAND, of Baltimore: Without desiring to enter into the discussion or prolong debate, I merely rise to say, in behalf of the Baltimore delegation, that our Board of Trade, at a special meeting, called to consider the subjects upon the official programme, advised its delegates to approve this proposition. We considered that the States specified were exceedingly modest in their request. They only asked to be put in a position of credit, to be able to do for themselves what many think, in view of its national importance, the General Government should do for them. There is no doubt in my mind that the enhanced value of the productions from these devastated and reclaimed districts, would enable the States to pay from taxation the annual interest, and create a sinking fund to pay the bonds at maturity; but the credit of most of the Southern States has of late been so much impaired by the reckless issue of bonds by some of them, that to negotiate the bonds to any reasonable