I would like to see a protocol, or even a part of the treaty, in which the users are guarantors of neutrality-if that is truly what we wish. If it is not what we wish, we should so state.

KISSINGER-TACK AGREEMENT ON TREATY PRINCIPLES

Senator SARBANES. Did you support the Kissinger-Tack agreement on the principles that should be embodied in a treaty?

Mr. EISENMANN. To be perfectly honest, I thought the agreement went beyond what was necessary. But, having signed it, that was what we had to abide by if we were to negotiate.

However, point No. 8 regarding a sea level canal had been disregarded during negotiations until at the last moment a clause was set up for a possible third set of locks or a sea level canal.

Senator SARBANES. Did you support those eight points?

Mr. EISENMANN. I supported the eight points once they were signed. Senator SARBANES. You thought that those points should be worked out and that that should be the basis of a treaty?

Mr. EISENMANN. Yes; I felt that we could not go backwards from that position.

My position has been more conservative about what we should do to help Panama and what would make justice for Panama.

Senator SARBANES. I thought you indicated earlier that you thought these treaties went too far in that regard?

Mr. EISENMANN. In some areas I believe they do go too far.
Senator SARBANES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Case.

WHO WITNESSES ARE

Senator CASE. Gentlemen and madam, welcome to the committee. But I am not quite sure I know which gentleman is Mr. Eisenmann and which is Mr. Robles.

Mr. EISENMANN. This is Mrs. Aragon.

Senator CASE. Yes; I do know that, and we are very glad to have her here indeed.

Mr. EISENMANN. I am Richard Eisenmann, and I am a retired U.S. Government employee.

Senator CASE. And is your companion a visitor here?

Mr. EISENMANN. This is Dr. Robles, an exile from Panama. He is one of the 13 who Ambassador Bunker said had returned.

Senator CASE. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Case, would you yield for a minute?
Senator CASE. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenmann, you said you were a former employee of the U.S. Government.

Mr. EISENMANN. That's correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you an American citizen?

Mr. EISENMANN. I was born an American citizen of American parents in the Republic of Panama. I am still an American citizen. I wouldn't give it up with a gun to my head.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I wanted to get that clear. Thank you, Senator Case.

Senator CASE. I appreciate the testimony very much. It does not present anything very strange to us. It rather confirms what I think we understood, in a general way at least.

DOES COUNTRY'S WILL OVERRIDE TREATY'S DEFECTS

There is one question that I would like to ask to make a point. It has been my general understanding—and it is a long time since I have been a student-that on basic questions, on basic matters, basic decisions, no matter what defects there may be, in calling a convention of the people and in bringing about an election participated in by the people, that the act of the people in that election overrides any defects that may exist, and in effect, is the will of the country. Does that not apply here to this plebiscite, assuming that everyone can vote?

Mrs. ARAGON. If it were a free plebiscite, where everybody could speak freely, where there was freedom of the press and freedom of expression, where all of those who were outside, who were exiled, were allowed to come back-then yes. But this is not a free plebiscite. They have been given just a few weeks to discuss something so complex as these treaties, which are being discussed here and points are being raised.

HOW DO YOU DO A GOOD THING?

Senator CASE. I am sure you can understand that we are in a rather baffling position in this country. If you don't deal with the current government, with whom do you deal-or, don't you deal?

When you are trying to do a good thing, how do you do it?

Do you have any specific suggestion?

Mr. EISENMANN. Senator, it seems to me that we are seeing grounds for wondering whether our State Department is honestly trying to do a good thing.

I question the motives of those who consistently mislead particularly those who are misleading the Congress.

I have heard statements of high State Department officials made in this room that are completely incorrect.

For example, I have heard it confirmed here that the Communists are against this treaty in Panama. It is the Communists in the Government of Panama that have helped to make this treaty. What is their motive?

WHAT STATE DEPARTMENT IS TRYING TO DO

Senator CASE. I understand your position on that point. But I am not quite so clear that I understand your argument that our State Department is trying to do a bad thing.

Mr. EISENMANN. I am willing to accept the fact that fine and honest people will do things that will have bad results. I consider also that people can be misled.

I have been a bureaucrat, and I know that when a policy is set, you follow the line.

Senator CASE. But you mean unwise, and not evil in motive?

Mr. EISENMANN. Yes; unwise, if Government officials try to get what a bureaucrat would consider the best possible treaty. I believe that the bureaucrat works for "brownie points" and does not therefore look far into the future.

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Senator CASE. I must say that you now have me thoroughly confused. I'm sorry.

Mr. EISENMANN. I am sorry, Senator.

Senator CASE. Maybe we are on a nonfruitful excursion.

Mr. EISENMANN. I think it is my fault, Senator.

Senator CASE. Oh, no, I don't think so. You are our guest, and I would not admit that even you have the right to say that about yourself.

Mr. EISENMANN. Thank you, Senator.

Senator CASE. I shall read this testimony with great interest, and not the less because of our little exchange.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Aragon, I am very sorry I missed your testimony. I had to go down to the White House this morning for the signing of a huge housing bill. Therefore I was late in getting here. But I am going to read it most carefully. I appreciate your presentation.

DO TREATIES PROHIBIT HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIONS

The thing that puzzles me is this. Mr. Eisenmann, this is addressed to you. You tell of things that ought to be corrected or things that ought to be done in Panama. Do these treaties prohibit the people in Panama from doing those things?

There is nothing here that says they cannot take action in behalf of human rights, is there?

Mr. EISENMANN. In the treaties, no.

Dr. Robles, perhaps you could explain why these treaties make it more difficult.

Dr. ROBLES. May I?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Dr. ROBLES. In the first place, I want to express my disagreement with some points. I do not believe that these treaties give too much to Panama. On the contrary, I think they give too little.

But specifically, to answer your question, these new treaties, among other things, provide a military aid of $50 million. That military aid tional Guard of Panama uses all of the military aid to consolidate Torrijos' position.

Every single dollar of military aid is a contribution to the dictatorship, not to the Panamanian people, not for the cause of freedom. The CHAIRMAN. Does that also apply to the economic aid? Dr. ROBLES. I am talking specifically about military aid.

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted to be certain that you were separating the two.

Dr. ROBLES. I talk now specifically about the provision, the agreement which refers to a $50-million increase in the military aid. What is the purpose of this? We don't have enemies. We are not at war with Colombia or Costa Rica. But the Panamanian Government is in permanent war with the Panamanian people, and the United States is taking sides in that war.

Senator CASE. Speaking for myself, I want to say I am very grateful to you for coming up here and giving us something that is obviously very, very close to your hearts in regard to this matter. What bearing it

may have upon the treaty I am not quite sure, but it is a matter that concerns us as human beings very deeply indeed.

SECRETARY OF STATE'S REPORTS ON PANAMANIAN HUMAN RIGHTS

On one rather minor, perhaps, aspect of the matter, I am disappointed in the reports we have received so far from the Secretary of State in regard to the condition of human rights in Panama. It does not seem to me to meet the requirements of the statute or the congressional intent with which it was passed. I intend to pursue that myself.

Thank you all very much indeed.

Mrs. ARAGON. Thank you.

WITHHOLDING APPROVAL OF TREATIES CHOSEN

The CHAIRMAN. I am still somewhat foggy because I have tried to elicit whether you recommended our approving the treaties or whether you want us to withhold our approval from the treaties.

Mr. EISENMANN. You are not saying "not ratify."

The CHAIRMAN. What was that?

Mr. EISENMANN. The first time you asked that question you asked whether you should not ratify the treaties. Now you give a choice I would be willing to take to withhold approval.

Senator CASE. To withhold approval.

Mrs. ARAGON. To withhold approval.

Senator CASE. Would that be your unanimous view?

Mrs. ARAGON. Yes.

Mr. EISENMANN. [Nods affirmatively.]

Dr. ROBLES. [Nods affirmatively.]

Senator CASE. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions from the committee? [No response.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We appreciate your presence here this morning.

Mr. EISENMANN. I cannot tell you how much we appreciate this opportunity.

Mrs. ARAGON. Thank you.

[As of the date of publication, the information referred to had not been received.]

The CHAIRMAN. Our next witness will be Mr. William P. Thompson, President of the National Council of Churches, New York, New York. [Mr. Thompson's biography follows:]

Biography of William P. Thompson, Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, The United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.

Born September 14, 1918, Beloit, Kansas.

Education: A.B.-McPherson College, McPherson, Kansas, J.D. (Doctor of Law)-University of Chicago Law School, Chicago, Ill., 1942.* Honorary degrees-McPherson College, J.D.C. (Doctor of Civil Law), 1956; College of Emporia, LL.D., 1965; University of Dubuque, LL.D., 1966; Missouri Valley College, LL.D., 1967; LaSalle College, LL.D., 1974.

Mr. Thompson does not use the title "Doctor."

Professional career: Admitted to practice law in Kansas, 1942; before the Supreme Court of the U.S., 1945. While in military service, served as Assistant Prosecutor, International Military tribunal for the Far East, Tokyo, Japan, 1946. After military service, became partner in law firm of Hershberger, Patterson, Jones & Thompson, Wichita, Kansas. Member of: Wichita Bar Association; Bar Association of the State of Kansas; American Bar Association; International Association of Insurance Counsel; Defense Research Institute, Inc.; Association of Insurance Attorneys.

Denominational activities: Mr. Thompson is a deacon and a ruling elder. Beyond local church responsibilities, he has served the United Presbyterian Church in a number of capacities, among which are Member, the General Council of the General Assembly (1958-64). Member, the Executive Committee, National Council of United Presbyterian Men (1962). Chairman, Special Committee on Capital Needs (1960-62). Member, the Fifty Million Fund Committee (1962-69). Moderator, the 177th General Assembly (1965). Stated Clerk of the General Assembly (1966-present). The stated clerk is the executive and highest permanent officer of the General Assembly. Mr. Thompson was elected to this post by the 178th General Assembly (1966), meeting at Boston, Mass., on May 26, 1966. He was reelected to a second term by the 183rd General Assembly (1971), meeting at Rochester, N.Y. Election is for a term of five years; there is no limitation on the number of terms a stated clerk may serve. He is the first layman to hold this office since 1883.

Ecumenical activities: Member of Central Committee of World Council of Churches Delegate to Assemblies of W.C.C. (1968 and 1975). Member of Executive Committee of United States Conference of the W.C.C. Member of board of directors of Friends of the W.C.C. Elected president of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches (Presbyterian and Congregational) in Nairobi, Kenya, August, 1970. Delegate to 19th General Council of World Alliance of Reformed Churches, Frankfurt am Main, Germany (1964) and member of the Executive Committee. Member of Administrative Committee of the North American and Caribbean Area Council of the Alliance. Elected president of the National Council of Churches of Christ, October, 1975. Member of Governing Board, Executive committee and various other committees and commissions of the Council. Member of the United Presbyterian Church's Special Committee on the Consultation on Church Union, and Member of Executive Committee of COCU. Community activities: Mr. Thompson has provided leadership for such community activities as: Community Planning Council; Wichita Community Chest and United Fund of Wichita and Sedgwick County; Civil Music Association; Wichita Symphony Society; Wichita Council of Camp Fire Girls; Civil Progress Inc.; Midwest Medical Research Foundation; Wichita Council of Churches: and Kansas Council of Churches, which presented him its Ecumenical Award in 1956.

Personal: Married to the former Mary Alice Wood. Three children: Judith, William W., and Margaret.

Address: Office; 1201 Interchurch Center, 475 Riverside Drive, New York, New York 10027. Home; 60 Ross Stevenson Circle, Princeton, N.J. 08540.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thompson, we welcome you to the committee. We have your printed statement. Proceed with it as you see fit. STATEMENT OF WILLIAM P. THOMPSON, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES, NEW YORK, N.Y., AND STATED CLERK OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN THE U.S.A.

Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I am William P. Thompson, president of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America, with headquarters at 475 Riverside Drive, in New York City.

I am a lawyer by training and practiced that profession for some 20 years before being elected to the office of Stated Clerk of the General Assembly of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. in 1966, an office which I still hold.