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setts to have, at the same time, 81,020 white people who had no schooling

Attorney General KENNEDY. What is that? Out of what number? We can discuss this, Senator. Out of how many people in Massachusetts ?

Senator ERVIN. Out of the total population in Massachusetts.

Attorney General KENNEDY. How many Negroes have had no schooling in Massachusetts ? Senator ERVIN. 2,409.

Attorney General KENNEDY. That is not a bad figure. But I think it would be much better if everybody had schooling.

How many white people in Massachusetts, Senator?

Senator ERVIN. The number of white people within these age groups

Attorney General KENNEDY. How many white people? What is the comparison with North Carolina ?

Senator Ervin. Let me give the comparison you made. According to the census of 1960, North Carolina has 2,307,171 residents of the ages of 25 years and upward, and Massachusetts has 3,010,617 residents of the ages of 25 years and upward.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I have here the chart of persons 25 years old and over with less than 5 years of school completed. The State that is at the bottom is Louisiana with 21 percent; South Carolina with 20 percent; Mississippi with 18 percent; Georgia with 17 percent; North Carolina with 16 percent; Alabama with 16 percent; Arkansas with 15 percent. Massachusetts has 6 percent.

Senator ERVIN. You still

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, once again, I do not think we are speaking—we are speaking English, but we are not speaking the same language.

There is a problem here. It is a problem in education; it is a problem in voting; it is a problem in public accommodations; it is a problem in the equal treatment of the Negro. The Negro has not been treated equally. We would like to correct this. we would like you to join us in correcting it, but you are opposed to every provision of this bill.

Senator Ervin. I wanted to see why you are so concerned about the fact that 32,143 Negroes who had no schooling, all of whom except 2,500 were born before you, were residing in North Carolina in 1960 and have no concern about the fact that at the same time, 81,020 members of the Caucasian race residing in Massachusetts had none.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I am concerned about that. And I am concerned to see that they get an education. But if you compare the overall figures, the State of Massachusetts compares favorably to any other State in the Union. The fact is, when you look at illiteracy and look at lack of education, and compare Massachusetts or any of these Northern States with the State of North Carolina and the State of Mississippi and the State of Alabama, there is a great, great difference.

The reason, the basic reason there has been a difference, is that the Negro has not been permitted to have an adequate education in the past.

I understand that changes have been made in North Carolina under the former Governor and the present Governor and these situations are being rectified. But these problems are not being rectified in a number of other States, Senator.

Senator Ervin. Let me give you other figures-putting it upon a 1,000-pupil basis. Negroes of the ages 25 to 34 having no schooling are at the ratio of 991 in North Carolina to 1,000 in Massachusetts. That is not much of a discrepancy is it--9 out of 1,000?

Those persons having no schooling between the ages of 35 and 44 of the Negro race in North Carolina number 987 as against 1,000 in Massachusetts.

I do not see much discrepancy there.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I am just looking at the Massachusetts has 2,945,000 white people and 81,000, out of that figure, have not received an education.

Senator ERVIX. North Carolina has 1.810,782 white residents and 496,389 nonwhite residents of the ages of 25 and upward while Massachusetts has 2,945,741 white residents and 64,876 non white residents of the ages of 25 and upward.

Senator JOHNSTON. May I interrupt just one minute there! I think these figures would be confusing to the public in regard to when you are talking about finishing the fifth grade or sixth grade or whatever it is.

I know, having been Governor twice of South Carolina, the same thing has taken place in all Southern States. We did find ourselves, because away back in 1905, 1906, and 1907, early at the turn of the century, a great many of the whites and coloreds did not have a chance to go to the fourth and fifth grades.

I, for one, was obliged to drop out because of personal obligations to my family which necessitated my working until I could resume my schooling at a later date, so I know more about it than a great many people.

So when I was Governor, more than 25 years ago, we were putting in the appropriations bill millions of dollars and set up adult schools throughout my State. They didn't get any certain grade, but they did get some education along the line. The same was true in North Carolina. The same was true in Mississippi, and all the Southern States, and they are doing it today.

I see a Member of the House from South Carolina here now and he will avow to the fact that they are appropriating money to people to go to night school for adults to attend. They are ashamed, the people, to go into classrooms, but they do want to go to school and they have been going

I think you will find that has offset a great many of the figures we are talking about at the present time.

Senator Ervin. Let me make a comparison upon a percentage basis of the educational status of members of the Negro race in the States of Massachusetts and North Carolina as disclosed by the census of 1960.

Of those between the ages of 25 and 34, 1.9 percent in North Carolina and 1 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling. Of those between the ages of 35 and 44, 3.5 percent in North Carolina and 1.8 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling. Of those between the ages of 45 and 54, 5.5 percent in North Carolina and 3.4 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling. Of those between the ages of 55 and 64, 10.2 percent in North Carolina and 6.5 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling. Of those between the ages of 65 and 74, 16.7 percent in North Carolina and 10.7 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling: of those above 75 years of age, 25.5 percent in North Carolina and 15.5 percent in Massachusetts had no schooling.

In view of the fact that the per capita income of the people in Massachusetts has always been far ahead of that in North Carolina, I think North Carolina does a pretty good job in staying somewhere in the neighborhood of your State of Massachusetts.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I think North Carolina does very well, Senator.

Could I just ask you whether you think, Senator, that there is a problem? Do you think there has been discrimination against Negroes in the field of education and that there is discrimination at the present time?

Senator ERVIN. If it is just to make inferences from more figures, I could infer there has been discrimination against white people in Massachusetts.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, that is humorous, but it is really not accurate, based on what the facts are.

Senator ERVIN. It is not humorous.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Could you answer my question, and then maybe we could talk about whether there has been discrimination against white people in Massachusetts? Do you think, based on your own experience and on the figures and on the information you have, that there has been discrimination against the Negro in the field of education in some of the States?

Senator Ervin. I would say to you in reply to that question, as far as North Carolina is concerned, North Carolina, with what resources it has had, has done about all it could do. If you do not have the money to educate people, you are not discriminating against them.

Attorney General KENNEDY. You are more than just a Senator from North Carolina.

Senator Ervin. You jumped on my State and brought it in and I did not, I think I ought to say a word in defense of it.

Attorney General KENNEDY. With all due respect, you have said that, Senator.

But I am asking now, without specifying North Carolina, whether you feel there has been discrimination against Negroes in the field of education in some of our States ?

Senator Ervin. Frankly, I have never investigated the problem except in North Carolina and Massachusetts.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Don't you think, Senator, if you are so opposed to this legislation and take the position you do, even if the situation does not exist in your own State, you would at least familiarize yourself with the situation in other States we have been discussing?

Senator Ervin. I do not see anything in this bill relating to education, except the provisions relating to integration and what they call racially imbalanced schools.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I do not understand how you can take that position, after the exchanges we have had over the last 6 or 7 weeks, and say you have never looked into the situation and that the only States you are familiar with are Massachusetts and North Carolina. Yet you are opposed to this legislation.

Senator Ervin. I did not intend to say that, Mr. Attorney General. I have looked into many things besides Massachusetts and North Carolina. I only looked into the figures about the census of 1960 relating to education for those two States.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Do you think, Senator, getting beyond the field of education, that the Negro has been discriminated against in the State of Mississippi?

Senator Ervin. According to the allegations made by the Attorney General, I would say they may be. I do not know of my personal knowledge. I have not investigated them.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Well, I think you should, Senator, with all due respect, if we are going to discuss this legislation. One of the situations it is aimed at is the treatment of Negroes in the State of Mississippi.

Senator ERVIN. Will you tell me what this bill has to do with education outside of school desegration?

Attorney General KENNEDY. I am talking about the whole pattern, the whole piece of legislation. I am asking you whether the Negro has been discriminated against. We are talking about voting, about education, about public accommodations, the whole area of the treatment of the Negro in the State of Mississippi. If you can say you have not looked into it in the State of Mississippi, I do not see how we can intelligently discuss this legislation. We are not just talking about North Carolina and Massachusetts, Senator.

Senator Ervin. I have looked into the laws available to the Department of Justice to enforce the voting rights of anybody living in Mississippi or anywhere else. I went into these school matters solely because you saw fit to bring my State in. Frankly, I do not know that they are relevant to our discussion. I never hear an attack made on North Carolina without coming to its defense.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I think there is a lot that Massachusetts can learn from North Carolina and there is a lot that I can learn from you. But I just, in all due respect, if we are going to discuss this legislation and the problems that it is attempting to remedy, we should just make an effort to try to study what those problems are.

Senator ERVIN. I wish to pass over a detailed consideration of rewritten title VI until I have had an opportunity to study those provisions. I merely ask you at this time why you rewrote title VI.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Because I felt that it could be improved upon.

Senator Ervin. Did you not come to the conclusion that title VI in its original form was a clear violation of both the constitutional principle that Congress cannot delegate its legislative authority to the executive branch of the Government and the due process clause of the fifth amendment?

Attorney General KENNEDY. No, I did not.
Senator Ervin. There was no provision in it for

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I thought this was an improvement. Whatever the reason was, I think this is an improvement.

Senator ERVIN. This bill deals with motives because after all whether discrimination is practiced must be determined by the intent or motive with which a person does an otherwise neutral act. This being true, I would like to know what motive inspired the Department of Justice to submit a rewritten title VI on the 23d day of August to a Congress which was supposed to have adjourned according to the Reorganization Act on July 31.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Because I thought this was an improvement and I do not gather that Congress is going to get out very quickly.

Senator Ervin. Apparently not. Certainly if Congress is going to consider a bill which raises as many problems as this new rewriting of title VI does, it is not going to get out soon. The new title VI requires a study of Federal practice and procedure and of Federal administrative law. In most colleges of the United States where those courses are taught, the minimum requirement for teaching them is a 1-hour lecture for several days a week, 9 months out of the year, in addition to all the time the student will have to spend outside studying about them.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to put in the record at this point some remarks I made on the Senate floor about titles VI and VII of the original bill.

I think this statement will disclose some of the motives which prompted the rewriting of it.

Senator JOHNSTON. I hear no opposition. It will be printed into the record as part of the testimony.

(The document referred to follows:)

REMARKS OF SENATOR SAM J. ERVIN, JR., DEMOCRAT, NORTH

CAROLINA, ON THE SENATE FLOOR

THE ADMINISTRATION'S CIVIL RIGHTS BILL: A DEBASEMENT OF CONSTITUTIONAL

GOVERNMENT AND AN EXALTATION OF GOVERNMENT TYRANNY

Mr. ERVIN. Mr. President, I rise to comment upon titles VI and VII of S. 1731, which is the bill embodying the administration's civil rights proposals. Title VI is headed “Nondiscrimination In Federally Assisted Programs," and title VII undertakes to give congressional sanction to the President's Commission on Equal Employment Opportunity.

The constitution of my native State of North Carolina has always contained an admonition which the Congress, the President, and all Americans would do well to heed. It is this : “A frequent recurrence to fundamental principles is absolutely necessary to preserve the blessings of liberty."

Let us pause for a few moments and recur to fundamental principles. By so doing, we can see titles VI and VII of S. 1731 in proper perspective, and realize that they debase constitutional government and exalt governmental tyranny.

1. THE CONSTITUTION

AS A PROTECTION AGAINST GOVERNMENTAL TYRANNY

As Americans, we have received from the Founding Fathers a most precious heritage-government under a written Constitution. Each of us is bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution.

Why did the Founding Fathers enshrine in a written Constitution the fundamentals of the government they desired to establish and the liberty of the citizen they wished to secure?

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