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exceeded considerably what the old mountaineer thought it should be. The old mountaineer complained that the bill was too large. The storekeeper got out his account books and laid them on the counter and said: "Here are the figures; you know figures don't lie.".

The old mountaineer said: "I know figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure."

Honest men also figure.

I have lived in North Carolina all of my life, and know some of the inferences you have drawn from your figures are not very accurate. In saying this, I do not challenge your good faith.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I am just giving the figures.

Senator Ervin. That is what the storekeeper was giving the old mountaineer.

Attorney General KENNEDY. That is why it is so difficult even to proceed, because if we are not going to recognize that there is a problem, if we are going to say that figures do not mean anything, that everything is fine, that we are making satisfactory progress, then we are not going to get any place. If we cannot recognize the fact that there is a problem, Senator, we are not going to get very far.

Senator Ervin. Mr. Attorney General, I will maintain at any time, and in any place, under any conditions, that North Carolina is more like heaven than any other place on earth. Despite this, I will admit that we have many unsolved problems down there. But I think we could solve them much better if we did not get so much interference from up here on the banks of the Potomac.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's have order.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I would say you have a serious situation when 10, 15, almost up to 50 percent, of the Negroes in these States have not completed the fifth grade.

Senator JOHNSTON. Let me say right there I think it is not fair to take the ages 25 and above. I think you should take the ages much lower than that, because you will find in all Southern States, in recent years, they have tried to bend over backward to try to help the colored man in regard to education. In recent years, in South Carolina, you will find that when I was Governor we had an investigating committee to go out and check the matter and we put on the statute books a law that paid the colored teachers and the white teachers the same amount and we grade the teacher's ability, not in South Carolina, but we send the papers to Princeton University for them to grade to see what the salaries will be in South Carolina to try to be fair in regard to this matter.

So I do not want the South to be criticized in regard to education when we have done so much.

Then just a few years ago, back in, along about 1950, we passed a bond issue of $100 million to try to set up schools for the colored people in South Carolina. If you will go and drive through South Carolina today you will find the colored schools are superior to the white schools in my State, because they have been built in recent years and under modern conditions.

All those things, I think, we should take into consideration. When you bring before us here 25 years old and above, you have gone back 25 years, and that hurts, of course.

But you must remember, we were living under Reconstruction days, as the Senator from North Carolina brought out so well, and those things we are trying to get away from. But the strife and discontent that is being stirred up is hurting the matter instead of helping.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I do not know that we can blame the fact that the Negro is not educated on Reconstruction days, but perhaps we can.

Could I just give you these figures in South Carolina, Senator? Senator JOHNSTON. Do you have under 25 ?

Attorney General KENNEDY. No Senator. They are for the population 25 and above.

Senator JOHNSTON. It is still the same. Attorney General KENNEDY. The nonwhite population is 333,000; 33,000, or 10 percent, have had no schooling whatsoever; 103,000 have had schooling of only 1 to 4 years and another 65,000 have had schooling 5 to 6 years. So it is over 60 percent of the Negro population of the State of South Carolina; well over 60 percent have not completed the sixth grade.

I will be glad to give you the book.

Senator JOHNSTON. To be fair, would you rate under 25 also and submit them to the committee?

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will be glad to do that. But as for the Reconstruction period, I understood that period was favorable to the Negro, so I do not know how we can blame the fact that the Negro did not receive an education on Reconstruction.

The white population over 25 in South Carolina is 802,000; 17,000 have received no education; 75,000, 1 to 4 years; and 90,000, 5 to 6. That is about 20 percent for whites as compared to 60 percent nonwhite.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Attorney General, in the past 15 years, the State of Mississippi has spent more on Negro education than on white education and I certainly think the figures under 25 should be placed in the record.

Senator ERVIN. And I think we have shown our concern for the education of all of North Carolina's children of both races.

I am convinced that North Carolina has spent a for greater proportion of her earthly substance for the education of Negroes than has the State of Massachusetts.

Of course, it is true we have many more. You have about 111,000. We have about 1,116,000. And they are good people.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the record will show that my State has more Negroes, too, than all the Eastern States combined.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Could I put Massachusetts in so that we get everybody in the record ?

Senator ERVIN. Yes.

Attorney General KENNEDY. There are 64,000 in Massachusetts, 64,000 Negroes; 2,410 received no education, 3,847 have received grades 1 to 4, and 5,685, grades 5 to 6.

Senator Ervin. I am sorry we got into a controversy about the States.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you place the number of Negro teachers you have in Massachusetts in the record ?

Attorney General KENNEDY. We do not have separate schools, you know, in Massachusetts, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. I said would you place the number of Negro teachers in Massachusetts in the record.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will be glad to do that, but when you say you have more Negro superintendents of schools and more Negro professors in Southern States, you have Negro schools.

(By letter dated September 26, 1963, addressed to Harold H. Greene, Department of Justice, from Owen B. Kiernan, Massachusetts Commissioner of Education, such statistics are not available. This letter is printed on p. 483 of the appendix.)

The CHAIRMAN. I warrant if you put the information on Negro schoolteachers placed in the record, in the Eastern States and also in the Southern States, you will find that you have more Negro teachers in my State than in all the Eastern States combined.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I thought these figures would be of interest.

Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir; they are of interest, but they would be far more illuminating if the Department of Justice with all the manpower at its disposal would bring in figures showing the school attendance records of children under 25 years of age and the number of adults in each age group above 25 years of age who have not attended school. I believe that you will find that most of the people in North Carolina of whom you speak are people up in their 70's or 80's. That would be my guess. I had hoped that we would be along a little further in our consideration of the bill. Maybe we should go back to the bill and quit throwing mud or statistics at each others' States.

Mr. Attorney General-
Attorney General KENNEDY. I will submit those, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.
(The material referred to follows:)

Persons 25 years old and over with less than 5 years of school completed

[Number in thousands)

[blocks in formation]

South Dakota.
New Hampshire.
North Dakota..

12 46 33 11 54

6 29 45 8 6 74 15 15 15 44 25 124 115 292 505 244 180



160 1, 845

360 356 345 941

534 2,550 2, 175 5, 378 8, 869 4,217 3,011

2.8 3.0 3. 3 3. 3 3.4 3.6 3.6 3. 7 3.8 3.9 4.0

.1 4.1 4.4 4.7 4.7 4,9 5.3 5.4 5.7 5.8 6.0 6.0 6.3 6.3

New Jersey-
District of Columbia.
Rhode Island.
New York
West Virginia.
New Mexico.
North Carolina..
Georgia -
South Carolina..


246 6, 606 3, 600 2, 493


498 1,693 10, 124

105 1, 300 2, 845

661 1,000

445 2,083 5,031 1, 610 1, 912


16 453 251 176 33 37 130 785

9 112 261

66 110

54 274 672 223 282

46 148 273 380 355 201 231 349

6.6 6.9 7.0 7.1 7.2 7.4 7.7 7.8 8. 2 8.6 9. 2 10.0 11.0 12 13.1 13.4 13.8 14.8 15.0 15.4 16. 3 16.5 17.6 18. 8 20.3 21.3

19 365 93

324 5, 808 1, 482

964 1, 670 2, 307 2,015 1, 065 1, 136 1, 639

Source: U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare based on 1960 census data supplied by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census,


Years of school completed by persons 25 years old and over, by color, 1960 1

Total 25

years old


and over

3, 415

The United States

99, 438, 084

89,581, 174

9,856, 910


1, 232, 258

437, 613


85, 440


661, 102


52, 275

1, 481, 788

1, 427,340

54, 448

245, 692

214, 319

31, 373

2,014, 845

1.511, 295

503, 550 Louisiana

1,639, 215

1, 175, 554

463, 661

534, 318

531,758 Nonwhite.

2,560 1 For the United States and 16 States requiring literacy tests.


2, 663



Years of school completed, by persons 25 years old and over, by color, 1960 1--Continued

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