Q. Did you see the Republican ticket and the Democratic ticket and the National ticket voted at that election? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I call your attention to the ticked headed "Republican Ticket," marked “Exhibit B" on the back, and part of the testimony of Mr. De Vay, and I will ask you if that is the ticket voted at that election by the Republicans? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I call your attention also to the ticket marked "Exhibit C" on the back, and on the face "Democratic Ticket," and ask you if that is the ticket that was voted by the Democrats on that day?-A. Yes, sir; that is one of them.

Q. Now I call your attention to the ticket labeled on the front "National Ticket" and marked on the back “Exhibit D" to the testimony of Mr. De Vay, and I will ask you if that is the National ticket?-A. Yes, sir; there were a few of those voted at my precinct-four or five, or six or seven.

Q. When lightly folded would that Republican ticket be apt to spring open? (Objected to as incompetent and immaterial.)

A. Yes, sir; it would.

Q. If two of those tickets were folded separate, and one were inclosed within the other and dropped into the ballot-box, would they be apt to spring open from a little shaking and release one from the other?

(Objected to as incompetent and immaterial.)

A. Yes, sir; they would.

Q. Could you distinguish that Republican ticket by sight at that election?-A. Yes, sir; I could distinguish it very handily.

Q. How could you distinguish it?-A. By the thickness of the paper and the general appearance of the ticket.

Q. You mean by sight?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you distinguish it by handling?-A. Yes, sir; very readily.

Q. What sort of material was that Republican ticket on, if you know?-A. Well, from inquiries made of the paper men, it is card-board.

(Objected to as incompetent.)

Q. Could you distinguish that Republican ticket?

(Objected to as a conclusion of law.)

Q. Could you distinguish the Republican ticket from any ticket that was printed on paper of the same width and length, on plain white print paper, or plain white book paper, or plain white writing paper? A. Yes, sir; I could and did readily. When I challenged there I could tell a man when he started up the chute by the ticket in his hand whether he was a Democrat or Republican, and so could our inspector. I would see him very frequently nod and wink at the Republican challengers on the Republican side when they would not be paying attention.

Q. Who was the Republican inspector at that precinct?-A. Mr. James C. Yohn. Q. The tickets voted at that precinct by the Republicans you say were on that material? A. Yes, sir; all of them that I saw.

Q. In your answer as to the character of the material do you answer as an expert, or do you answer as you understood it?-A. No, sir; I am not an expert. It is just my knowledge about the paper, my general knowledge of it from using it one time and another.

Q. Did you ever see such material used before as that upon which the Republican ticket was printed, by any party at any election?

(Objected to as immaterial and incompetent.)

A. No, sir.

Q. What was the effect of the use of that ticket by the Republicans upon the secrecy of the ballot?-A. The effect was to destroy the secrecy of the ballot. I saw persons (colored men) come there, and they would look at the two tickets, and if they had a desire to vote the Democratic ticket they would go away. In one or two instances I saw them go away and come back with their tickets in a little envelope and go to the window so that the Republican challengers could not see their tickets.

Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. I will ask you if that was not a Democratic trick, to put those tickets in those envelopes?-A. No, sir; it was not a Democratic trick.

Q. You are a Democrat in politics?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. You was the Democratic challenger there that day?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are at present the Democratic candidate for alderman in one of the districts in this city?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you give the name of a single colored man that went to the polls and voted with his ticket in an envelope?-A. I don't know the names of the colored men that did it, but I know that myself and others witnessed it.

Q. Can you give the name of a colored man?-A. If I had thought about the matter at that time I could have done it.

Q. Could you give the location where any one lives?-A. They live in this precinct. This is in the eleventh ward.

Q. You say that James C. Yohn, the inspector at that precinct, would nod and wink?— A. Yes, sir; and I told him so:

Q. You say you told him that? A. Yes, sir, I did, and he heard me himself. I asked him to stop winking at the challengers.

Q. Can you give me the names of any one that was standing by and heard you?—A. I do not remember who was standing there, but they all did. Mr. George W. Stout was a member of the board and he, no doubt, recollects it. I said that openly.

Q. Is he a Democrat or a Republican?-A. He was one of the judges there-a Democratic judge.

Q. State if you know of any one who was deceived or misled in voting at that precinct in consequence of the Republican ticket being on the character of paper it was?A. I do not know that anybody was misled or deceived into voting that ticket.

Q. I will ask you if you know of any one who would have voted differently if the Republican ticket had been printed upon the same character of paper as the Democratic ticket was printed on?-A. No, sir. In answer to that I will say that I don't know any particular person, but I saw the effect of it; that men were afraid to show their tickets and afraid to let their hands be seen with them-certain men.

Q. How many of that kind were there there?-A. A good many of that kind. Q. Can you name any one of them?-A. I don't know that I could now. been called on the next day after, I might. It has passed out of my mind.

If I had

Q. Did you hear any one complain to the board of election that day about the character of the Republican tickets?—A. I complained myself when it was opened there. I got up in the window and proclaimed that it was an illegal ticket.

Q. Who gave you that information?-A. Nobody; I detected it myself.

Q. I will ask you if the Hon. Joseph E. McDonald had not been around to that poll before that?-A. No, sir; I did not see him.

Q. Was he at that poll there that day?-A. I think he voted there.

Q. You got up there at the poll yourself, and what did you say?-A. I said that that was in violation of law-that ticket.

Q. How many were standing around there at that time?-A. There were a good many there.

Q. About how many?-A. Thirty or forty.

Q. Were there fifty or one hundred there?-A. Thirty to fifty.

Q. And you proclaimed to the multitude that it was an illegal ticket?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you go to the board and make any complaint, and ask to have the ticket rejected?-A. I went to the window and held the ticket up and told them that it was in violation of law. That is what I said.

Q. Who was there at the time?-A. All the Republican challengers were there.

Q. Give me the name of the Republican challenger?-A. I think Mr. McLain was one of them, the county clerk, and Ott Hasselman, and there were a good many there that stood on that side of the chute. Those I know were there.

Q. And you don't remember any others?-A. I could think them up, I think.

Q. You say you have no knowledge as an expert as to the different qualities of paper?-A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know what kind of material that Republican ticket is printed on?-A. I do know what kind of material it is.

Q. What kind of material is it?-A. It is a very heavy kind of card-board, I judge. Q. Which is it? You say you know.-A. I mean I know what kind it is.

Q. What is it?-A. I say it is a very extraordinarily heavy kind of paper.

Q. What is the color of it?-A. White paper.

Q. Is it plain white?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then it is plain white paper?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have any bet on the result of the election last November?-A. No, sir; I did not: not a cent bet on it

Q. Have you been around hunting up evidence on this question since the election?— A. No, sir.

Q. Didn't you say you had consulted with paper dealers?—A. I did then and there consult. They were right there at my polls. If I am not mistaken, Mr. De Vay was there and some other person.

Q. Mr. Hasselman was there, was he not?--A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you consult with him about it?-A. There was not any use to consult with him.

Q. Why?-A. He was on the other side.

got up the ticket and was in the scheme.

I have no doubt that he was the man that

Q. What scheme do you refer to ?-A. The scheme of using such a ticket as that.

Q. When you say it was no use to consult him, what do you mean?-A. I mean to say that so far as he was concerned he was of a different party from me, and I did not consult him about it, as a matter of course.

Q, Do you mean me to infer from that that a Republican shall not accept anything that is said by a Democrat, and rice versa ?—A. No, sir; nothing of the kind. What information I sought about it I sought elsewhere. That is what I mean to say.

Q. What is your age?—A. I am 28 years old.

Re-examination by Mr. WILSON:

Q. Was not Mr. Hasselman the Republican challenger at that precinct?-A. Yes, sir. Q. And he is a very active Republican, is he not? A. Yes, sir; rampant.

Q. Was he not, in point of fact, a member of the Republican executive committee that had charge of that campaign?-A. Yes, sir.

(Last two questions objected to as incompetent and immaterial.)

Q. Was he not in the printing business?-A. Yes, sir; he said they were, and laughed, and said that that was a scheme that would work. He laughed and crowed there about it. Q. Are you not an attorney?-A. I am, and practice here. I have been in the law business ever since I have been here, studying and practicing together, 7 years.

Q. Do you understand, in the popular sense, that the Republican ticket is on plain white paper?

(Objected to as immaterial.)

A. Well, I will say that I do not understand it to be on the kind of ticket contemplated by statute.

(Objected to as an opinion.)

Q. I will ask you whether it is on book paper, as you understand book paper?-A. No, sir.

Q. Or writing paper?-A. No, sir; neither writing paper or news paper.

Q. Or book paper.-A. No, sir.

Q. How many tickets, if you know, were voted at that precinct where you were?—A. There were 200 Republican tickets and 165 Democratic tickets, I think.

Q. Was the Republican ticket voted there like this ticket you have called attention to here?-A. They were all that kind of tickets.

Re cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. State what kind of material that Democratic ticket is printed on?-A. It is upon ordinary white book print paper.

Q. How do you know?-A. I know by opening a book and looking at it.

Q. Where did you get the information that the Democratic ticket was printed on book paper? You say you are not an expert?-A. I am not an expert, but I know different kinds of paper that are used. I write every day on paper and have read books all my life, and I know that much about it.

Q. You know there are different qualities of book paper?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you tell what the quality of that is?-A. I cannot tell it exactly, not what an expert would call it.

Mr. WILSON. You answer that question in a popular sense?
The WITNESS. Certainly I do.

JACKSON LOUDERS, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct examination by Mr. WILSON, attorney for Mr. English:

ROSS CLARKE.

Question. State your name, age, and residence.-Answer. Jackson Louders; 41 years old; residence, 622 North Pennsylvania street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Q. How long have you resided in this State?-A. Forty-one years.

Q. How long have you resided in this city?-A. Since the 4th day of October, 1873, about ten years.

Q. Have you ever held any official position in this county ?-A. I was County Treas

urer.

Q. Were you in this city, and, if so, did you attend the election held on November 7, 1882? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who were the candidates for Congress, if you know, on the Democratic, Republican, and National tickets at that election?-A. Mr. English was the Democratic, Mr. Peelle was the Republican, and the National I could not tell.

Q. Did you act in any official capacity on that day in that election?-A. I was judge, I think.

Q. At what precinct and ward?-A. Precinct No. 1, second ward.

Q. Did you see the Republican ticket voted for Stanton J. Peelle at that election ?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see the Democratic ticket voted for Mr. English at that election ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. I will call your attention to the ticket marked Exhibit B to the deposition of Mr. De Vay and headed, "Republican Ticket." I will ask you if that was the ticket voted at that election by the Republicans?-A. As I remember now, it was.

Q. I will call your attention to the ticket marked Exhibit C to the deposition of Mr. De Vay, headed "Democratic Ticket," and I will ask you if that was the ticket voted by the Democrats at that election?-A. I think so.

Q. When that Republican ticket is lightly folded, would it remain folded, or would it be liable to spring open?

(Objected to as immaterial and incompetent, for the reason there is no evidence that it was so folded.)

A. My opinion would be it would be inclined to fly open.

Q. If another ticket was placed inside of it after being folded, that other ticket being folded, would they remain together, or would they be apt to come apart by shaking? (Objected to as incompetent and immaterial, for the reason that there is no evidence the tickets were voted so.)

A. That I cannot tell; I never practiced it.

Q. What do you think about it?

(Objected to as incompetent and immaterial.)

A. I suppose if an expert had hold of it it might shake out.

Q. Could you distinguish that Republican ticket voted at that election?

(Objected to as a conclusion of law.)

A. You mean, I suppose, at the time they were being voted?

Q. Yes, sir.-A. I think as a rule it could be done.

Q. How would you do it; and if you did, how did you do it?-A. By the thickness of the paper.

Q. By the appearance?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a matter of fact did you, and could you, at that election at that precinct, tell the Republican ticket when you saw it or when you caught hold of it in your hand without opening it?-A. As a rule we could.

Q. Did you ever see a ticket, voted at any election, printed on material of that character that the Republican ticket is printed on?

(Objected to as immaterial and incompetent.)

A. I do not remember that I have ever seen one printed on as heavy paper as that.

Q. What was the effect of the use of that ticket at your precinct upon the secrecy of the ballot?

(Objected to as a conclusion of law.)

Q. Was it impaired?

(Objected to as leading.)

A. To a great extent I would think it was.

Q. Do you know what the number of votes of that precinct at that election in the aggregate were?-A. No, sir; I do not.

Q. Which had the majority at that precinct, Democrats or Republicans?-A. The Republicans were vastly in the majority.

Q. What, approximately, was the result at that precinct?

(Objected to as incompetent, for the reason that the return will show for itself.)

A. I could not say, to get at it exactly.

Q. Was there 100 Republican votes?

(Objected to as leading.)

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were the tickets voted there of the character that you have looked at here? (Objected to as leading.)

Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. What is your politics?—A. I am a Democrat.

Q. You were one of the Democratic judges at the first precinct in the second ward ?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. I will ask you as a matter of fact if you know of any voter at that precinct who did distinguish the Republican from the Democratic ticket?-A. As a matter of fact I could not say that I did.

Q. Do you know of any one who was misled or deceived in voting at that precinct in consequence of the Republican ticket being on the material it was?-A. My recollection is that we found in the box one ticket of this Republican ticket with the Democratic ticket pasted right over it and voted that way. Pasted right over the Republican ticket on the face of it.

Q. That would make the ticket still heavier?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know who voted that ticket?-A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know of any one that would have voted differently had the Republican ticket been upon the same kind of paper that the Democratic ticket was printed on?— A. I don't.

Q. Was there any complaint made to you, or to the board, I should say, about the character of the Republican ticket on that day?—A. No, sir; not that I remember of. Q. State if the ballots were all counted there by the board without objection from anywhere.-A. They were all counted except one ballot.

Q. Without objection?-A. Without objection. There was one Democratic ticket thrown out.

Q. And one Republican ticket?-A. I do not think we threw out any Republican that I remember of.

Q. Was it the ticket you threw out that was pasted upon the Republican ticket ?—A. No, sir. I think that was a Democratic ticket that was cut out of the Sentinel as it was published in the Sentinel, and they ruled it out on that ground because there was printing on the back side of it; also it was cut out of a newspaper.

Q. Could you distinguish the Democratic ticket from the Republican ticket?—A. Well, we thought we could at the time.

Q. As readily as you could the Republican from the Democratic ticket?-A. Oh, no. Q. Did you have any wager on the result of the Congressional election last fall. That you are at liberty to answer or not as you please?—A. I will not answer it then.

Q. Take that Democratic ticket and National ticket in your hand that you had a moment ago, and examine the two tickets, and I will ask you to state if the Democratic ticket is not printed on heavier paper than the National, if it is not more compact, and if it has not a better finish on it?-A. The Democratic?

Q. Yes, sir.-A. It is slightly heavier paper.

Q. Has it a better finish?-A. I think the Democratic part of it has.

Q. I say the Democratic ticket, is not the paper better finished?-A. I am no expert on paper.

Q. You can see by looking, and tell that it has a better, finer finish and polish on it?— A. It is slightly heavier; that is all I can say.

Q. Has it not a smoother surface?-A. Yes, sir; it is smoother.

Q. State if you cannot tell the difference between those two tickets in the weight of the paper that the tickets are printed on.-A. By handling them and looking at them closely you can.

Q. Could you by sight?-A. I do not think I could.

Q. Could you tell the Republican from the Democratic ticket by sight?-A. I think so. Q. Are they both plain white?-A. I think so.

Q. How can you distinguish between the color of the tickets so as to tell one from the other?-A. I could not tell from the color.

Q. I am speaking about the external appearance of the tickets when they are folded.— A. I could not tell by the color; they are both on white paper.

Q. By sight?-A. I did not say by sight.

Q. Can you tell the Republican from the Democratic ticket, when folded, by sight?— A. I think I could.

Q. From its external appearance?-A. From the size of it.

Q. Supposing you did not get to see the end of the ticket, then could you tell the Republican from the Democratic ticket?—A. I do not think that I could.

Q. It would be necessary to see the end of the ticket and its bulk to distinguish them? A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you do that you could distinguish the Democratic from the Republican as quick? A. Yes, sir,

Q. Could you not distinguish the Democratic ticket from the National ticket if you could get at the bulk of it?-A. Not so readily.

Q. You could distinguish it, could you not?-A. I do not think I could. I would not think there was as much difference in the weight to tell that.

Q. It is not in the weight. It is in the bulk?-A. There is not so much difference as there is in the others.

Q. There is a difference, is there not?-A. A slight difference.

Re-examination by Mr. WILSON:

Q. Can you tell the difference between that Democratic ticket and the National ticket except by a very careful inspection?

(Objected to as leading, and not examination in chief.)

Mr. WILSON. It is not examination in chief.

A. I think it would take a close examination to tell.