Q. You recollect that Hancock and English were the candidates for President and Vice-President in 1880. Then, as to their names or others, you think that is the ticket that was used, but you do not recollect that this was the kind of material of the paper that was used; have you any recollection of the kind of paper or the width of the paper, or anything of that kind that was used at that election?-A. I do not recollect; only I would say if that ticket was put in my hands now that that is a similar ticket to those voted.

Q. Is not that because you would not indulge the presumption that some one would go to work and get up a ticket that had all these characters on, and is it not simply because it has all these names on it that you think that is the ticket? Is not that the reason?-A. I will say to that, as I said before, I would not go into the discussion of the paper or tint, or anything else, butI would say that is the Democratic ticket that was voted there that day.

Q. But to go back to the beginning; is it not simply because their names are on it, and you do not believe there would be a forgery, is the reason you reach that conclusion, and it is not because you recollect the character of the ticket so far as the width and appearance of the material are concerned?—A. Well, perhaps it may be that. That is the general appearance of the ticket.

Q. Do you recollect what kind of a ticket was voted in 1880 at the national election by the Democrats at this time, independent of this question? Do you bear any recollection and memory of the character of the ticket voted in 1880?-A. Candidly I remember a difference in the tickets on that day, and I recognize

Q. That is not an answer to my question-A. I recognize those two tickets which you placed in my hands, of course, from the names that are on them there, and from the general character of them both. I remember, as I said before, a dissimilarity in the tickets, but as to remembering distinctly whether there was a tint, I cannot say as to that now.

Q. Did you recollect that there was a difference in the width of the tickets until Mr. Peelle told you to compare the tickets?-A. No.

Q. Did you recollect that there was a difference in the character of the paper used?-A. I did; I am certain of that. I undoubtedly did.

Q. You recollect that there was a difference in the paper used?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now you say that there is a greater difference between the Republican ticket as used and voted at the national election for Garfield, and the Democratic ticket as then used, than there is between the two tickets voted here at the November election in 1882.-A. I say in the first place-these exhibits-there is a much more fully defined difference and distinction in the tickets then than there was in the tickets used in our State election..

Q. Are those exhibits that you refer to and have in your hand labeled "national tickets," and in that voting are they the tickets used?-A. They are so similar that I would say that they were.

Q. You say that the exhibits are different without saying that the tickets are. Why do you say that the tickets used in that election are more different, and the difference could more easily be determined in the tickets handed you than the Republican ticket in the last election, both being folded as voters ordinarily fold them ?-A. The distinction in these tickets, both Republican and Democratic, and national tickets, is more easily distinguished.

Q. I will ask you is not this national Democratic ticket that you have in your hand faded and yellow?-A. It is yellow.

Q. Don't you say that that is the result of age?-A. I would say that it would perhaps require an expert on paper to answer that question. I would say that paper that I have kept for that length of time does not get yellow.

Q. You say that that paper is not in any sense faded or discolored by time?-A. It is soiled; it is undoubtedly soiled; but whether it is faded or not-white paper will not fade. The question is would it grow yellow with age.

Q. Answer the question; I say faded and discolored by age.-A. If it had been faded it would be whiter now than it was when it was used.

Q. How is white paper made, and what is white paper; I will ask you that question-A. White paper?

Q. Yes, sir.-A. White paper is made from cotton rags, I suppose.

Q. Is there any bluing in it?

Mr. PEELLE. The witness has not said that he was an expert.

Mr. WILSON. He was pretending to be an expert.

Mr. PEELLE. Not at all.

The WITNESS. I suppose there was a bleach in the rags.

Q. I am not asking you about bleaching; I am not asking you about any alkali; I am asking you if bluing is not used to make white paper, and is not all white paper so produced by the use of bluing ?-A. I do not know.

Q. Then you do not know what white paper is in that sense, or what is used to prodace white paper?-A. I only know from the common experience I have had with white paper that it don't grow yellow in two or three years.

Q. But news paper don't grow yellow in two or three years, does it?-A. Papers, o course, grow dim with age. I can, of course, only give my experience. Old books, of course, are yellow.

Q. Does old news paper get yellow in that seuse quicker than old books, and don't they get yellow in that way from age?-A. I suppose a very inferior quality of news paper will grow yellow earlier.

Q. Is not that ordinary news paper that the Democratic ticket is printed on-that national ticket of 18807-A. I would say it was a better quality. It is “challered” or "channeled," or something of that kind.

Q. Is it not yellowed by age, in your opinion, too?-A. I do not think that paper is yellowed any with age.

Q. Then that is the natural color, that appearance it has, and you think it is exactly what it was two years ago when it was voted, in point of color, if it does not yellow with age at all?-A. Except from the soiled marks on there, and the general appearance of it being worn. I base my answer from taking a piece here away from the edges where it has not been handled. I have made my answer that I thought the paper was undoubtedly soiled, but whether it was faded, as you express it

Q. Or yellowed or colored from age; I understand you to say that it is not, and that has made no difference in it ?-A. It has a general old appearance, undoubtedly; but I do not think the paper where it has not been soiled has changed its appearance. Q. You think, then, that age has not changed the appearance of that paper, is my question, and your statement-I do not hardly understand it?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. That age in 1880, at that election and to the present time, that quality of paper you say was not changed in appearance; didn't I understand you to say that the paper got whiter as it gets older?-A. If you did, I would like to have my answer read. You asked me if it had not faded, and I said if it had faded with age it would be whiter now than it was when it was voted.

Q. Do you mean that it was faded or folded ?—A. I mean faded.

Q. The edges of that national Democratic ticket are somewhat frayed and torn on one side ?-A. Yes, sir, they are.

Q. It looks like it has been handled, and doesn't it look old ?-A. It does.

WILLIAM A. VAN BUREN.

WILLIAM N. HARDING, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. State your name, age, and residence.-A. William N. Harding; 33 years old; residence, Indianapolis, Indiana.

Q. What is your occupation ?—A. I am a lawyer.

Q. How long have you been in the practice of law in this city ?-A. About four years, I believe.

Q. You are a Republican ?—A. I am.

Q. Did you attend the election in this city in 1882?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. The Congressional election ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. State if you did occupy any official position that day.-A. I did not. I was not appointed by the central committee or anything of that kind, or the county commissioners.

Q. You were not on the board?-A. No, sir.

Q. Or a member of the committee?-A. No, sir.

Q. What part did you take at the polls?-A. Part of the time I challenged, and I held the position as challenger and did some challenging.

Q. What precinct and ward?-A. Thirteenth ward, south precinct. The number of it I do not know. The other part of the time I was at work around the polls. Q. State if you saw the tickets that were voted there that day by the different parties.-A. Yes, sir.

Q. I hand you now a ticket, headed "Republican ticket," and marked Exhibit A to the deposition of Mr. Holliday, and I will ask you to state if that is the ticket that was used that day by the Republicans.-A. I think it is.

Q. I hand you now a ticket, headed "Democratic ticket," and marked Exhibit B to the deposition of Mr. Holliday, and I will ask you to state if that is the Democratic ticket used that day, if you recollect.- A. I have no recollection of that ticket. The names of the candidates were upon that ticket. It looks like the Democratic ticket that was voted at that time.

Q. That day did you observe the tickets as they were being voted, when they were being folded by the different voters; did you observe the tickets in standing there as they were being voted?-A. I was a casual observer of the tickets as they were being voted.

Q. And you were challenger there?-A. Part of the time.

Q. State if, when that Republican ticket is folded as tickets are ordinarily folded by voters, if you could tell or distinguish that Republican ticket from the Democratic

ticket when similarly folded, by sight?-A. I do not remember that I could. I do not recollect of an election that ever occurred that I could distinguish the tickets from each other as they were folded and being voted.

Q. By sight?-A. By sight.

Q. Did you, in fact, make any effort at that election to tell how people were voting by just looking at them as they were voting ?-A. I presume I did; I always do.

Q. Did you or not distinguish that ticket from the other as they were folded at that election?—A. I did not, that I recollect now.

Cross-examination by Mr. WILSON:

Q. You say you were a casual observer?-A. Yes, sir; I was a casual observer as to the voters as they went up in the chute. I was very zealously at work there.

Q. Did you make any particular effort to determine what ticket a man was voting by the ticket, and did you have your attention directed to it, and did you try that?A. I will say this: that there never was an election that I did attend that I did not make that effort.

Q. But you never have been able to tell the difference yet?-A. I have been able to tell the difference-at least I have been able to tell a difference. This is the way tickets are folded. I will tell you how that difference consists. I remember, in my experience since I have been a voter in the last several years, that the ticket has been a little wider-at least I think it has been generally a little wider than the Democratic ticket as a rule. There has been a distinction of that kind to me for several years.

Q. Did I understand you to say that there never has been a time that you could not distinguish them and that you could distinguish them?-A. I do not think that either way. I said there never had been a time but what I had zealously watched tickets as they were put in.

Q. I asked you, has there ever been a time when you could distinguish them ?—A. After they were folded up?

Q. Yes, sir.-A. I do not think there ever was a time, unless I would see the ticket being folded.

Q. Not from the character of the ticket, there never was a time?-A. Now, wait, and I will explain that. I said that as a rule for the last several years there was a difference in the width of the tickets, and if I would see a ticket folded at that time and see it being folded I could probably distinguish between the Republican and Democratic ticket.

Q. That was because the Republican ticket was a little wider, you say?—A. Yes, sir; I think the Republican ticket has been a little wider.

Q. Could you tell that difference when the voter was voting and had it in his hand without watching him carefully; simply the difference in the width of the ticket, being an eighth of an inch, and the ticket on the same kind of paper otherwise, and folded exactly alike and voted, do you think you could tell the difference between the Democratic ticket and the Republican ticket?-A. Not if it was folded. I do not think I could. I said at the time it was being folded.

Q. Now, I will ask you is not that Republican ticket there a good deal thicker and a good deal stouter and a good deal more elastic and a good deal heavier than the Democratic ticket?-A. It is considerably thicker.

Q. More elastic, is it not?-A. More elastic.

Q. Heavier, is it not?-A. I think it is heavier.

Q. Is it more than double as heavy?-A. I will say it is heavier.

Q. You do not know how much heavier?-A. I could not say how much heavier. Q. Are not those differences sufficient to enable you while looking carefully at his hands after you had familiarized yourself with the difference in the tickets, is it not such that, seeing the end of a ticket as the ticket went in the box, to say that it was a Republican ticket with the springy capacity, or when not springy, its breaking capacity; could not you tell the difference that way ?-A. In the position that I occupied on that day, I don't think I could.

Q. Could a challenger tell the difference through handling them and seeing them?— A. The challenger did not handle the tickets, as I understand it.

Q. Could the inspector tell the difference from seeing and handling those tickets on that day?-A. Yes, sir; I think so. I think to handle the tickets there is a difference in the texture of the tickets.

Q. With all of those differences so perceptible, as you say, to the touch and handling, you could not, when you had a fair chance to look at them folded, tell the difference, with the aid of your sense of sight?-A. As I remember my experience now at the poils that day, I will state that in the position that I occupied as a challenger, and noticing the voter as he went up to the polls with his ticket doubled up that I could not tell the difference. I will say this farther, that I had the ticket in my hand handling it when I said before I thought I could have told the difference.

Q. You think if you had handled it before and then looked on you could have told H. Mis. 23-16

the difference?-A. I could not say. I think if I had handled one ticket, and then handled the other ticket, I could have told the difference.

Q. You could have learned the difference?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. After having learned the difference by that inspection, you could not by sight afterwards tell the difference ?-A. I think the difference in thickness is so slight it is not perceptible after the ticket is doubled.

Q. I will ask you to look at these two tickets that I have in my hand, folded as they are, and is there any difference in the two tickets? Which is the Republican ticket?— A. I think that is the Republican ticket [indicating].

Q. Yes, sir; that is correct.-A. I saw you fold it up.

Q. No, sir; I did not fold it up; it was folded laying just as I picked it up.—A. I can see the different springy part; I can tell the difference on close sight.

Q. If there is that difference in the thickness when unfolded, would there be the same difference in the thickness when folded?-A. There will the same difference, but not so perceptible.

Q. Would it not be more perceptible when folded, because isn't the bulk larger? Take two similar tickets, and one is doubled up and so is the other, and see if the difference is not more perceptible to sight when it is doubled up than otherwise?— A. Yes, sir: that is true.

Q. Therefore, when you double that Republican ticket up in eight plies, and the Democratic ticket in eight folds, there is a marked difference when you press them together?-A. On close sight there is.

Mr. PEELLE. Looking at them together?

The WITNESS. Yes, sir.

Q. Look at those two tickets about the distance of two and a half feet. Is there quite a difference still?-A. Let me hold them.

Q. Yes, sir; I will let you hold them. Hold them so the light can fall on them, and not so it will be in the dark, and press them together at arm's length, and I will ask you now is there not a very perceptible difference when your attention is directed to that matter in that way?-A. I cannot say there is a very perceptible difference.

Q. Can't you see the difference?-A. I can see a slight difference, perhaps two feet from me in my hands holding them.

Q. And in my hands, the way I hold them the same distance, you would see the same difference, held at the same distance from you?

(No response)

Q. You are a Republican ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you are announced as a candidate for prosecuting attorney?-A. I hope to be the next prosecuting attorney.

Q. You are a candidate before the coming Republican convention for prosecuting attorney?-A. I am a candidate for the nomination, if I can get it at the next convention in this county.

Q. You take a good deal of interest in politics?-A. I always have.
WILLIAM N. HARDING.

ALFRED R. HOVEY, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. State your name, age, and residence.-A. Alfred R. Hovey; my age is thirty; my residence is in the twelfth ward in this city.

Q. What is your business?-A. I am a lawyer.

Q. Where are you practicing law?-A. In this city.

Q. How long have you been practicing law ?—A. Well, it has been a little more than five years. I was admitted to the practice in the Federal court. I did not have much practice for the first couple of years, or such a matter.

Q. Did you ever occupy any official position?-A. I never have

Q. You are a Republican in politics?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never have occupied any official position?-A. No, sir.

Q. Was you not attorney once for the county ?-A. My partner and myself were appointed by the county commissioners in this county in the fall of 1880 to defend the paupers in the criminal court; such persons as were not able to employ counsel, and we held that position two years.

Q. Did you attend the election in this city in 1882-A. I did.

Q. What precinct and ward?-A. Second precinct of the twelfth ward.

Q. Did you see the tickets voted at that precinct by the Democrats and Republicans? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have any particular business that day there?-A. I was Republican clerk of the board that day.

Q. State if you saw the tickets as they were being voted and handed in to the inspector.-A. Yes, sir.

Q. I now hand you this Republican ticket, marked Exhibit A to the deposition of

Mr. Holliday, and I will ask you to state if that is the Republican ticket voted at that precinct for Congressman and other candidates.-A. Yes, sir; that is just like the tickets that were voted.

Q. I hand you now this ticket, headed Democratic ticket, and marked Exhibit B to the deposition of Mr. Holliday, and I will ask you to state whether that is the ticket voted by the Democrats at that precinct.-A. It is exactly similar to those that were voted there.

Q. State if, when that Republican ticket is folded as tickets are ordinarily folded by voters when voting, if, when so folded, you could tell or distinguish that ticket by sight from the Democratic ticket similarly folded.-A. I know I tried often on the day of the election to distinguish which ticket was being voted, and I could not do it. Q. State if there was any complaint made to the board on that day about the character of the Republican ticket by anybody.-A. I never heard one word spoken about the difference between these tickets until after the electon was over and the count had.

Q. Did the count at that precinct correspond with the number of names on the pollbook?-A. It did within either one or two. There was a discrepancy of one or two votes there, I think.

Cross-examination by Mr. WILSON:

Q. You say you never heard of any complaint about the difference in those tickets until after the election was over?-A. I never heard any person say that there was any difference, or speak about there being any difference, between the tickets.

Q. Your attention was not called to the fact that there was any difference by any person-A. I never talked with any one about it.

Q. You never heard any one speak of the difference and you never spoke about the difference to any one and you never heard of the difference until after the election was over and the count had ?-A. No, sir.

Q. You were a clerk sitting inside?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are a Republican and the partner of Mr. Harding, who has just testified?-A. Yes, sir.

ALFRED R. HOVEY.

By agreement of the parties the further taking of these depositions was adjourned until Friday, November 8th, 1883.

FRIDAY, November 9, 1883–2 o'clock p. m.

The parties met pursuant to adjournment.

JOHN H. BOWLBY, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct examination by Mr. PEELLE:

Q. State your name, age, and residence.-A. John H. Bowlby; 42 years old; 263 South Pennsylvania street.

Q. What is your business?-A. Railroad conductor.

Q. What road have you been connected with ?-A. I have been on the I. B. and W. for 13 years.

Q. Did you attend the election in this city last November for candidates for Congress? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What precinct and ward?-A. Seventeenth ward; second precinct.

Q. Did you see the tickets voted there that day? -A. Yes, sir.

Q. What portion of the day were you at that precinct there?-A. I was there all the morning; in fact all day, except about two hours, when I was away.

Q. What did you do when you were there; did you act in any official capacity in
any way, or simply work at the polls?-A. I just worked there at the polls.
Q. Handling tickets, were you?-A. I had Republican tickets, that is all.
Q. That is what I mean. You are a Republican, I believe?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. I hand you now a ticket, headed "Republican ticket," and marked Exhibit A to the deposition of C. F. Holliday, and I will ask you to state if that is the ticket that was used by the Republicans at that precinct, or a similar ticket.-A. I do not know hardly whether that is the ticket we used that day or not.

Q. What is your recollection about it?-A. The heading seems to be; it is the same kind of a ticket.

Q. I now hand you a ticket, headed "Democratic ticket," and marked Exhibit B to the deposition of Mr. Holliday, and I will ask you to state if that is the ticket that was used by the Democrats at that precinct as you recollect it, if you have any recollection upon the subject.-A. Well, I could not say. In fact, I did not handle any Democratic tickets that day. My impression is, it is that kind of a ticket.

Q. State if, when that Republican ticket is folded as tickets are ordinarily folded by voters when they vote, whether you could tell that Republican ticket from the Democrat ticket when similarly folded in the hands of the voter when looking on, by sight.-A. I do not think I could by looking on.