(Objected to for the reason that the ticket is the best evidence of the fact.) Q. Under whose control was the poor-house, what party, and what were the politics of the men in control of the poor-house when you were elected?-A. Republicans. Q. Were they the same men that are now in control?-A. Yes, sir-that is, at one election they were and one they were not. The first election it was under the control of Mr. Larry Logston and at the last or second election they were under the control of Mr. Wright, the same man that controlled them on November 7th, 1882. Q. How many years ago was that election held there, the first time when you were elected?-A. That was in the spring of 1877, I think. Q. The second election, what date was that?-A. It was two years later. Q. Do you know what became of the tickets that was used at those two elections?— Q. Bring them in, the Democratic and Republican.-A. Yes, sir; it is my impression I have them. They were at my house. I am talking about the tickets that were at my house. I think they were at my place, that is, the township ticket. Q. Those that were put in the box?-A. Yes, sir; the township tickets, those that were put in the box. They were turned over to me as township trustee. JOSEPH H. SHEPARD, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: H. W. MILLER. Direct examination by Mr. WILSON, attorney for Mr. English: Q. State your name, age, and residence.-A. I am 40 years old; I live in Marion County, Indiana, in the city of Indianapolis, at No. 95 Minerva street. Q. How long have you lived in this city?-A. Twelve years. Q. Did you attend and vote at the election held November 7, 1882, in this city, for Congress and other officers ?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Whereabouts-what precinct?—A. I voted in the first precinct of the 14th ward, and, being ward committeeman I attended the second precinct that day. I voted in the first precinct. Q. You attended that day?-A. Yes, sir. Q. In what capacity were you there?-A. A kind of general manager in the capacity of county committeeman about the polls. Q. Did you observe the tickets that were used there that day by Democrats and Republicans-A. Yes, sir. Q. I call your attention to this ticket headed "Democratic ticket," and marked Exhibit G to the deposition of Austin H. Brown, and I will ask you is that the ticket voted by the Democrats that day.-A. To the best of my knowledge it is; yes, sir. Q. I call your attention to this ticket marked as Exhibit F to the deposition of Austin H. Brown, and headed "Republican ticket," and I will ask you if that is the ticket voted by the Republicans that day at that precinct.-A. Yes, sir; as near as I can recollect. Q. Did you see those tickets put in the box, any of them?-A. Oh, yes, sir. Q. Could you, whilst they were going in the ballot-box and whilst looking at them, tell the difference between the Republican ticket and the Democratic ticket ?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How could you do that?-A. By getting up close to the voter and, as the inspector held out his hand to take the vote, I could tell whether he was voting Republican or Democratic ticket, by the ticket being stiff. Q. You mean the Republican ticket being stiff?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever before know election tickets to be printed on such material as that Republican ticket is printed on? (Objected to as incompetent and immaterial.) A. I do not know as I ever did. Q. Did the use of that Republican ticket impair the secrecy of the ballot at your precinct at that election? (Objected to as leading and a conclusion of law.) Q. Did its use prevent persons voting the Democratic ticket at that precinct who would have voted if they could have voted their sentiments without it being known by the use of the Republican ticket ?-A. Their sentiments I cannot say, but I know that ticket prevented their voting the Democratic ticket, and they were challenged on one side; if they did not have that kind of a ticket they were challenged, and if they had that ticket in their hands they were permitted to vote. Q. You mean by "that ticket" the Republican ticket?-A. Yes, sir. They could vote right straight along and not be challenged. Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE: Q. Was there anybody challenged that day that did not get their vote in ?-A. Yes, sir. I cannot call them by name now; there was several. There were some challenged in the morning that had the Democratic ticket in their hands, and in the afternoon they voted. Q. Who was it?-A. I cannot call their names. Q. Were they entitled to vote there ?-A. They certainly must have been. Q. You know whether they were or not?-A. I cannot say. The parties that challenged them in the forenoon let them vote in the afternoon without challenge. Q. What is your impression; were they legal voters or not?-A. I judged them to be legal voters. Q. Was there any complaint made to the board that day about the character of the Republican ticket -A. Yes, sir. Q. By whom?-A. By Joseph Shepard, myself. Q. By you?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Were the tickets counted without objection ?-A. I believe not; but not being on the inside, there was an objection made; but I was not on the inside; I was outside. Q. You do not know about that?-A. No, sir. Questions by Mr. WILSON: Q. How did they vote in the afternoon, those persons that were challenged in the morning?-A. They voted a stiff ticket. Q. What official position do you hold ?-A. I am councilman. I qualified the other day as councilman of the 14th ward, and had been previously councilman for one year from the same ward. Questions by Mr. PEELLE: Q. How do you know those men that were challenged in the forenoon voted a stiff ticket in the afternoon ?-A. By observing that they did. Q. Did you have Democratic challengers there?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they challenge them ?-A. No, sir. Q. Then they were legal voters there in the judgment of your challenger ?—A. They certainly must have been. Q. Do you know what their politics were ?-A. I do not know. I know they made an attempt to vote the Democratic ticket in the morning by seeing it and they were challenged, and in the afternoon they voted the Republican ticket. Q. You do not know what their politics were ?-A. No, sir; I cannot say. Mr. WILSON. Were they black or white? The WITNESS. They were black and white. MORITZ POSNER, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: J. H. SHEPPARD. Direct examination by Mr. WILSON, attorney for Mr. English: Q. State your name, age, and residence.-A. My age was 44 the 4th of last December, and I live 172 Indiana avenue, this city. Q. How long have you lived in this city?-A. I will be in that place 13 years the 2d of February, in that same square where I do business at present, and I have been here before, but I went back to New York. Q. Were you in the city of Indianapolis the 7th of November, 1882, the day of the Congressional election ?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you attend that election?-A. No; well I gave my vote. I do not know what you call attendance. I understand you 1872; Yes, I did. Q. You attended that November election, 18827-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you act in any official capacity there?-A. Nothing at all. Q. Were you there that night when the count was made?-A. I was there because they wanted me up inside by counting the tickets. Q. Then you were watcher?-A. Yes, sir. Q. You are a Democrat?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see the tickets voted there that day?-A. No. I cannot tell nothing about that. I did not go close to the polls where they put the tickets into them. Q. Did you see the tickets voted after they were voted?-A. Yes, sir; I saw them. Q. I call your attention to this ticket, marked "Exhibit F," to the deposition of Austin H. Brown and headed "Republican ticket," and I will ask you if that is the ticket the Republicans voted or that was taken out of the box to be counted?—A. That is the Republican ticket. That is the stiff ticket. Q. I will ask you if this ticket-you say you counted them out of the box-of the Democrats, marked Exhibit G, to the deposition of Mr. Brown, is the ticket used by the Democrats on that day at your precinct?-A. That is the Democratic ticket. That will not spring. I saw them taken out of the box. Q. I will ask you if you could tell that Republican ticket from the Democratic ticket without looking at the names while they were folded there?-A. All I can tell you is this: I will just come plain out and tell you the whole thing how it was, because I am not a judge in court matters, and if you will let me talk clear through I will tell you the whole of it at once, and it will not take five minutes. First, I have been called in that night to watch the counting of the tickets. I asked Mr. Tom Chandler, he was sitting by the window, and I took my chair next to him; and the box was standing at this side and the front, and some one, I do not know who it was, took a chair, or something, and got the key from another man and opened the box, and run his hand in and shoveled kind of up the tickets. That was the commencement, and he says, "Move a little, I haven't got room enough," and I says, "I don't know, Mr. Chandler, you have room enough to sit here." Mr. Bunts was sitting on the other side, and then they commenced to count, and Mr. Tom Chandler he took the tickets out and called out, and I was a little astonished that he took the stiff paper out and counted it first. All the Republican tickets and the balance was kind of looked like scratched out here, and some Republican tickets also scratched, and the balance of it there was Democratic tickets, and what is the reason to open the box and not take out one ticket like an other, and let it run clear through? Q. Did he count those tickets without looking at the face of them; pick up Republican tickets one after another?--A. Why, no, sir; he really took the stiff papers out. You must know that is the Republican ticket, because all the Republican votes came out first, and that is the idea what it looks so strange to me. Q. Could you tell the Republican ticket?-A. After he took the first, second, third, and fourth, going on to one hundred, and I saw all the stiff and as soon as that was through I saw the limber ticket come out and I knew that it must be the Republican ticket out first because I did not see any Democratic ticket come. Q. Did he take them out without looking ?-A. Yes sir. He took them out without looking. He never opened the ticket. He took them out and opened them and did call the names out. Q. How did he count them, one at a time?-A. One at a time, and then he called the names to the secretary; one was Mr. Hovick and the other I don't know. Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE: Q. You are a Democrat?-A. Yes, sir. Q. You were a Democratic watcher all that night?-A. Yes sir. That is what they called me up for. I did not want to go; they coaxed me Q. Were those tickets counted without objection?-A. I don't know. I believed Mr. Bunts objected to one or two tickets. I cannot tell exactly. There was some objection to it. Q. Tickets that were folded together?-A. No, no. I cannot say that. Q. Were the Republican tickets objected to ?-A. There was some objection about it of some kind, or some claim. There was none called. Q. Was the counting of the Republican tickets there objected to by anybody?—A. No. I believe not. Q. Did the votes correspond with the tally?-A. I do not know. I cannot tell; it is a matter what I never took any attention to, but I am too green in that business; I did not pay any attention and I do not know anything about it. MORITZ POSNER. The further taking of these depositions was by consent of both parties adjourned until Saturday, October 20th, 1882, at two o'clock p. m. SATURDAY, October 20th, 1883-2 o'clock p. m. Parties met pursuant to adjournment. FLORECE CASEY, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: Direct examination by Mr. WILSON, attorney for Mr. English: Q. Your name, age, and residence ?—A. Florence Casey; age 31, as near as I can remember; residence, 9 Chadwick street. Q. How long have you resided in this city ?-A. About 11 years. Q. Were you in this city on the 7th day of November, 1882, the day that the Congressional election took place?-A. Yes sir. Q. At what precinct-A. The first precinct of the 25th ward. Q. Did you act in any capacity there that day other than simply a voter ?—A. Yes, sir. I was in the capacity of clerk of the board. Q. Were you the Democratic clerk?-A. Yes sir. Intended that way. Q. Did you see the tickets voted -A. I did sir. Q. By the Republicans and Democrats at that precinct that day?-A. Yes, sir. Q. I call your attention now to this ticket here, marked Exhibit G to the deposi tion of Austin H. Brown, as the Democratic ticket, and I will ask you if that was the ticket voted by the Democrats at your precinct on that day at that election ?—A. I think it was, sir. Q. I now call your attention to this ticket, marked Exhibit F to the deposition of Austin H. Brown and headed "Republican ticket," and I will ask you was that the ticket voted by the Republicans that day -A. Yes, sir. Q. I understood you to say you saw those tickets voted there?-A. Yes, sir. I saw the tickets voted there. Q. State whether or not you observed the tickets whilst they were being voted; and if so, whether you could tell one from the other-the Republican from the Democratic. Yes, sir, you could; I think you could. The Republican ticket was larger; it was of a bigger bulk. It was thicker paper by a great deal. Q. Did you, in fact, tell one from the other-could you whilst looking on when folded as tickets are ordinarily folded?-A. Well, if I could get close to them I could easily tell them if they were folded; perhaps standing a distance away, as much as 10 or 12 feet, I might not tell it. Q. If the use of that Republican ticket had any effect on the secrecy of the ballot, you can say! (Objected to as leading.) A. Well, in counting the tickets, after we got through the votes, I saw three or four, I believe it was, of young Will English's slips on the bottom of the ballot-box. I thought they were pasted on the tickets. It showed that was the vote conclusively, but they did not count them. They let them lay in the bottom of the ballotbox after they got through counting the votes. Q. That is hardly responsive to my question. I will ask you if you tried to see whether a paster would stick to the Republican ticket?-A. No, sir; we did not try that. Q. You did not ?-A. No, sir. Q. What was your statement as to pasters in the box -A. There were, I think, three or four-I could not really say. It was about that, so far as I can remember, of Will English's pasters in the bottom of the ballot-box after we got through counting the votes. Q. You say they were not counted?-A. No, sir. They were not counted for any body. Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE: Q. You are a Democrat?-A. Yes, sir. Q. You were the Democratic clerk there?—Yes, sir. Q. You don't know who put those pasters you spoke of in the box -No, sir. Q. Were those Republican tickets counted without objection?—A. The Republican tickets were all counted; yes, sir. Q. Without objection ?-A. Yes, sir. FLORENCE CASEY. JOHN P. FRENZEL, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: Direct examination by Mr. WILSON, attorney for Mr. English: Q. Your name, age, residence, and occupation?-A. John P. Frenzel; age 30; president of the Merchants' National Bank; residence, Indianapolis, Marion County, Indiana. Q. How long have you resided in this city?-A. 29 years. Q. Were you in this city on the 7th of November, 1882-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you attend the Congressional election on that day?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see the tickets voted by the Republicans, Democrats, and Greenbackers or Nationals at that election?-A. Yes, sir. Q. I hand you now five (5) tickets, headed "Republican ticket," and I will ask you whether or not those tickets were the tickets voted and used by the Republicans on that day at that election in the city?-A. Yes, sir. Mr. WILSON. Now I make these as a part of the deposition of Mr. Frenzel, and I wish them to be marked, respectively, exhibits one, two, three, four, and five each to the deposition of Mr. Frenzel. Mr. PEELLE. To which I object as not being the correct ticket voted at that election. (The tickets will be found attached to this deposition as a part thereof.) Q. I now call your attention to two tickets, headed "Democratic ticket," and I will ask you whether or not those were the tickets voted and used by the Democrats on that day?-A. Yes, sir. Mr. WILSON. I offer those as part of his evidence and ask those to be marked as exhibits Nos. 6 and 7. (The same will be found attached to the deposition of this witness as part thereof.) Mr. PEELLE. I object to those tickets on the ground that the ticket has been heretofore introduced in this case, and that they are not the correct ticket voted by the Democrats on that day. Q. Is that the kind of ticket, or ticket similar to that, or on similar material, that were voted by the Republicans and Democrats on that day?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you tell those Republican tickets from the Democratic ticket on that election, all of the tickets being folded with the names inside? (Objected to as conclusion of law.) A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you so distinguish them at the election? (Objected to as a conclusion of law.) A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the material upon which that Republican ticket is printed, if you know? Describe the material.-A. I think it is card-board. Q. Could you distinguish those Republican tickets from any other tickets of like length and width printed on plain white print paper, plain white book paper, or plain white writing paper, the tickets being folded with the names inside? (Objected to as incompetent and immaterial.) A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you say, or do you know, whether the Republican challengers and inspectors at that election could tell those Republican tickets from the Democratic tickets, the same being folded whilst they were being voted? (Objected to as immaterial, for the reason that he is not presumed to know whether other people could tell or not.) A. I believe I could. Q. Did you ever know election tickets to be printed on the material upon which that Republican ticket is printed before? Q. What was the effect of the use of that Republican ticket, if any, on the secrecy of the ballot at that election? (Objected to as incompetent and leading.) A. The effect was to destroy the secrecy of the ballot, Q. Did the use of that Republican ticked or did it not prevent persons from voting the Democratic ticket and for William E. English for Congress who would have voted for him had not the secrecy of the ballot been affected or impaired by the use of that Republican ticket that way? (Objected to as leading.) A. I think so. Cross-examination by Mr. PEELLE: Q. You are a Democrat, I believe?-A. Yes, sir. Q. You are now a member of the Metropolitan Police Board in this city?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you not active in the November election, 1882, in the interest of the Democratic party?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you not collect and disburse funds or money in the interest of the Democratic party in 1882?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Pretty extensively, did you not?-A. No, sir. Q. Can you tell about the amount you collected and disbursed? (Objected to as not legitimate cross-examination.) A. I am not disposed to do so. Q. Do you decline to answer?-A. Yes, sir; I, do. Q. Were you at any precinct during that election?-A. Yes, sir. Q. What precinct were you at?—A. At the first precinct in the 9th ward, and the second precinct in the 17th ward. Q. Did you stay there all day, or just backwards and forwards?-A. I was most of the day at the 1st precinct in the 9th ward, and part of it at the 2nd precinct in the 17th ward. Q. You have never been engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling paper, have you?-A. No, sir. Q. You have no knowledge whatever as to the kind of paper that Republican ticket is printed on as an expert?-A. Only the knowledge that the handling of a great deal of paper in the kind of business I am engaged in would give me. Q. You have no knowledge as an expert or paper dealer or manufacturer ?—A. Not as manufacturer or dealer; no, sir. Q. Did you have any bet on the result of the Congressional election November, 1882? Mr. WILSON. The question is whether he had any bet on Mr. English on the last November election. Mr. PEELLE. Certainly A. No, sir. |