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full year.

and estimated obligations for the remainder of the year and for the

Mr. Taber. I would like to have you put in the record a statement showing about how much money will be drawn out of the Treasury month by month next year.

Mr. MARTIN. For the fiscal year 1938?
Mr. TABER. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. We have a table on that total, but we will attempt to break it down by months, to the best of our ability.

Mr. TABER. That is assuming that the 23 million dollars under consideration here is provided for?

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir; and the table we will insert will show that.

Mr. Taber. I wish you would put that in the record.
Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir; we will do that.
(The statement above referred to is as follows:)

Estimated expenditures, fiscal year 1938, for land and construction, including esti

mate of $23,000,000 now before Congress July 1937$8, 000, 000 | February.

7, 000, 000 August.. 8, 000, 000 March.

7, 000, 000 September. 9, 000, 000 April.

7, 000, 000 October.. 9, 000, 000 May.

7, 000, 000 November. 8, 000, 000 June.

7, 126, 856 December

8, 000, 000 January 1938

7,000,000 Total, fiscal year 1938. 92, 126, 856 Mr. TABER. When you figured on the buildings in the District of Columbia, did you figure on the War Department building in this program?

Admiral PEOPLEs. That is an entirely separate item. Any District of Columbia projects are entirely separate items from what we discussed yesterday. The buildings we discussed yesterday were entirely outside the District.



Mr. WOODRUM. Under the heading "Procurement Division-Public Buildings Branch", you have an item for sites and construction, public buildings, act of May 25, 1926, as amended, and so forth. Will you give us an explanation of that item?

Admiral PEOPLEs. That is proposed legislation. Under this appropriation title payments are made for the construction of public building's specifically authorized by Congress under the Public Buildings Act approved May 25, 1926, and acts amendatory thereof.

This building program has been financed through an annual lumpsum appropriation sufficient in amount to meet only current obligations and it is believed before the end of the fiscal year 1938 all obligations will have been liquidated and the program completed.

Since the passage of the basic act, Congress has specifically authorized 818 projects with the limits of cost aggregating approximately $475,000,000. Cancelations or transfers reduced this number to 739 projects with limits of cost totaling approximately $446,500,000. It appears that the total cost of this program will be $402,500,000 or $44,000,000 less than the aggregate limits of cost authorized.

On July 1, 1936, there were only two projects where the main construction contracts were still active, namely, Agriculture Extensible Building and Oak Park, Ill., Post Office; and 261 projects had outstanding obligations or reservations for minor work such as plaster painting, seeding and planting, tenant changes, etc.

In the submission of the estimate for 1937 it was estimated that $3,450,000 would be required to complete this program, $3,350,000 of which was appropriated for the fiscal year 1937. Since the submission of the 1937 estimate the Comptroller General, after a second review, allowed a claim in favor of the contractor for the Newark, N. J., Post Office and Courthouse, in the amount of $222,000, which would make the requirements for the fiscal year 1938 $322,000, based on the status of the program when the estimate for 1937 was submitted. However, during the fiscal year 1936 net savings have been made in the reservations as set up at that time totaling approximately $147,000, thereby reducing the appropriation requirements for the fiscal year 1938 to approximately $175,000.

In lieu of an appropriation of approximately $175,000 to complete this program, authority is being requested to make available the unexpended balances of 24 projects completed under section 3 of the act approved May 25, 1926, which balances total $180,643.98.

Mr. TABER. You always get a little extra when you have a reappropriation, do you not?

Admiral PEOPLES No; we get a little less.

Mr. TABER. You told me the amount was $175,000, and you are asking for $180,000. We might better give you $175,000 direct and cut out this reappropriation.

Admiral PEOPLES. This is making available unexpended balances under other projects, and I have a list of them here, totaling $180,643.98.

Mr. WOODRUM. They say available until expended, do they not?
Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.
Mír. WOODRUM. You may proceed with your statement.

Admiral PEOPLES. The following proviso has therefore been included in the language for this item:

Provided, That any appropriations heretofore made for specific public building projects under section 3 of the act of May 25, 1926, as amended (U. S. C., title 40, secs. 341-349), or balances thereof which are unobligated upon the date of the approval of this act shall be consolidated into the fund established by the provisions of the "Second Deficiency Act, fiscal year 1930”, dated July 3, 1930, out of appropriations made pursuant to section 5 of said act of May 25, 1926, and shall be available to the same extent and for the same purposes as other moneys included in the said fund.

The Second Deficiency Appropriation Act, fiscal year 1930, approved July 3, 1930, contained the following provision:

Provided, That all initial appropriations heretofore made for specific public building projects under section 5 of the act of May 25, 1926, as amended, and unobligated upon the date of the approval of this act, shall be consclidated into a single fund and made available for any of such projects as originally authorized and/or subsequently amended and any other public building projects heretofore, herein, or hereafter authorized under section 5 of such act, as amended.

At the time the above act was enacted it did not appear that any appreciable saving would be made in the limits of cost of the 69 section 3 projects and for that reason authority was not requested for the transfer of balances under these projects to a lump-sum appropriation as those under section 5.

The proposed transfer of such balances to the lump-sum appropriation "Sites and construction” will provide sufficient funds to complete "The old building program" authorized by the act of May 25, 1926, and the acts amendatory thereof.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the total amount in that fund you referred to?

Admiral PEOPLES. There is a balance remaining of $180,643.98.

Mr. WOODRUM. What is the $175,000 to be used for? I am not quite clear on that.

Mr. Martin. In order to determine how much money is required to complete the program, we have a statement as of May 8, 1937, which shows the outstanding contractual obligations, plus reservations for minor work, both inside and outside of the District, which totals $2,921,355.44.

We have set up on the books as separate items balances for furniture for the New York courthouse, made available under the act approved March 21, 1935, amounting to $45,599.71; a balance under the increase in the limit of cost for the Department of Agriculture extensible building, under the act approved August 14, 1935, amounting to $53,688.55; a balance under the increase in the limit of cost for the Oak Park, Ill., post office, under the act approved August 12, 1935, amounting to $20,984.76; and an amount set aside to be available for unforeseen contingencies that might develop in the final winding up of this program, which amount is $122,978.50; or a total for estimated additional requirements of $243,251.52. That makes the total estimated amount to be liquidated $3,164,606.96, toward which there is a total unexpended cash balance on hand as of May 8, 1937, amounting to $2,983,962.98.

The difference represents the amount we are asking for, $180,643.98, which amount represents the total balance now on the books on account of the 24 completed jobs under the old act of May 1926, as amended.

Mr. WOODRUM. That winds up that program?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. TABER. If, after the word "available” we insert in the language of that item "not exceeding $175,000", that would meet your situation, would it not?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.



Mr. CANNON. Admiral, in 1935 we provided for this program 60 million dollars; in 1936 we provided 60 millions, and in 1937 it was practically 67 million dollars, was it not?

Admiral PEOPLES. Under the act of 1934 it was 65 million dollars; under the act of 1935 it was 60 million dollars, and under the act of 1936 it was 60 million dollars.

Mr. CANNON. How many projects were handled under the 1934 program?

Admiral PEOPLES. Three hundred and sixty-four.
Mr. CANNON. And how many in 1935?
Admiral PEOPLES. Three hundred and forty-eight.
Mr. CANNON. How many in 1936?

Admiral PEOPLES. Three hundred and sixty-five, making a total of 1,077.

Mr. CANNON. How many do you propose to handle under the appropriation we are now considering?

Admiral PEOPLES. On the basis of the 70 million-dollar authorization?

Mr. CANNON. Yes.

Admiral PEOPLES. About 380 projects. We have about that number in the 70-million-dollar program over 3 years.

Mr. Cannon. What was the time required? You gave 1 year to the 1934, 1935, and 1936, programs, respectively?

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir, 1 year.

Mr. CANNON. And you propose now to give 3 years for 380 projects. If we made that a 1-year program, how many projects could you handle, and what would be the amount of money required?

Admiral PEOPLES. It would be the same number, sir.

Mr. CANNON. What would be the proportionate number in a 2-year program? If it were desired to reduce the proposed 380 projects for 3 years to a 2-year program, pro rata, would you say you could reduce the amount expended, too, and if so, to what figure?

Mr. MARTIN. The 23-million appropriation would be sufficient if we have it on a 2-year basis or on a 3-year basis. That amount would be for the first year.

Mr. CANNON. You propose at this time the amounts of 23 million, 24 million, and 24 million?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CANNON. That would be a total of 71 million?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. If we reduced it to a 2-year program and made corresponding reductions in the number of projects, so that there would be approximately 250 projects, in round numbers, what would be the cost of such a program?

Mr. MARTIN. We had in mind that you would proceed with any or all of the projects under a 70-million authorization, but that you would so defer the work and spread out the work so you would not obligate more than 30 million dollars, or expend more than 23 million dollars in the first year.

Mr. CANNON. In the event that we decided, say, to cut this expenditure program down about one-third, and instead of spending 71 million dollars in 3 years we proposed to spend, say, in round numbers 50 million dollars in 2 years; how many projects could you handle under that sort of a program?

Mr. Martin. That would depend somewhat, of course, on the number of large projects you included in the program. Using an average of $171,000 for projects, and dividing that-

Mr. CANNON (interposing). Your average would be $171,000?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; that would be close to 300 projects.

Mr. CANNON. As a rule, you usually carry a certain quota of large projects with your small projects, so with your 300 projects you carry so many large projects?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cannon. Under a 2-year program you would carry about how many of your large projects?


Mr. MARTIN. It would be a limited number; I should say it would be less than 10 good-sized projects.

Mr. CANNON. How many small projects?
Mr. MARTIN. About 290.

Mr. REYNOLDS. It would be less than that, because it is necessary to take out $6,000,000 to start with. For new projects, exclusive of the $6,000,000—

Mr. Martin (interposing). There is a total of $8,500,000 in addition.

Admiral PEOPLES. What we have been aiming at is one project per district. That is the controlling factor in the distribution. The minute you try to cut it down in proportion to the number of projects you run into all sorts of difficulty with regard to an equitable distribution.

The controlling factor is the factor of one project per district, except in the larger areas, where a larger project would take care of the needs of the municipality.

Mr. CANNON. If you carried out your plan of one project per district you would necessarily have to reduce your larger projeots, would you not?

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir. As we pointed out yesterday, there have been a number of these larger projects that have been postponed from year to year, many of which are being self-liquidating.

It is good business prudence to move ahead with them. This reduction would have to be made in the larger projects.

Mr. Cannon. If you tried to give every district one project in the next 2 years and limited your expenditures to 50 million dollars, how many large projects could you commence?

Mr. MARTIN. There would be very few.
Admiral PEOPLES. Probably 10 or 12.

Mr. Cannon. What is the minimum expense of one project per district, of these smaller projects?

Mr. Martin. Usually about 70 thousand dollars, which covers the site, the building, preparation of plans, superintendence of construction, and all the furnishings—a complete building.

Mr. TABER. There must be some rural districts where you have finished your program, where there are no second-class offices left.

Mr. MARTIN. There are 32.

Mr. TABER. Thirty-two rural districts in which there are no secondclass offices left?

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. No offices with receipts above $10,000.

Mr. CANNON. By the time you took out the 32 and you took out large cities where you had surplus districts, how many would that reduce the number of projects required to complete one project per district?

Mr. BACON. You mean to eliminate the 32 and to eliminate the large city districts?

Mr. CANNON. The large city districts where you usually group the districts.

Mr. MARTIN. By using the smallest project in the district—if you had one large and one small one, you would pick the small one.

If you could get a $50,000,000 program of new projects, 343 projects would cover approximately 389 districts.

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