Mr. WOODRUM. What, in a general way, does this proposal contemplate, Admiral?

Admiral PEOPLES. This proposal contemplates authorizing a program of $70,000,000 for expenditure over the period of 3 years, toward which amount $23,000,000 is appropriated. That amount is authorized by the Budget. The projects are to be selected from the list which we have been going over. It provides, also, for the 10 and 15 percent. It provides, too, that the total obligations under the $70,000,000 program shall not exceed $30,000,000. That refers to the obligation of $30,000,000 for the fiscal year 1938. It provides that contract authority is granted to enter into contracts for any or all projects selected under the program in an amount not to exceed the estimated total limit of cost of such individual projects. We have followed as closely as possible the wording of the act.

Mr. WOODRUM. How many projects would that enable you to carry out in the course of 3 years?

Admiral PEOPLES. About 380.

Mr. WOODRUM. In other words, generally speaking, that would provide for one project in each congressional district.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Would that enable you to take care of all the major projects?

Admiral PEOPLES. It would spread them over a period of 3 years rather than 1 year.

Mr. MARTIN. That would enable us to take care of practically all the major projects, with a very few exceptions.

Mr. WOODRUM. Are not some of the major projects important from an economical standpoint?

Mr. MARTIN. There are some very good projects; yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. From the standpoint of saving rents and for efficient operation?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. As I understand the suggested language, it would contemplate a program running over a period of 3 years, with the total amount authorized not to exceed $70,000,000, of which $23,000,000 would be available for the fiscal year 1938 and of which not to exceed $30,000,000 would be available for obligation in 1938, so that you could spend $23,000,000 in 1938 and obligate $30,000,000 in 1938. Mr. MARTIN. You could not obligate in excess of $30,000,000 in

1938.

Mr. WOODRUM. And the remainder you could obligate in 1939 and 1940.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Under that authority, you would take the eligible list which you have given us, and which is now in the record.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. In addition to this list of projects fixed up by the Secretary of the Treasury and the Postmaster General.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. It would take care of the buildings that would become eligible, or which for one reason or another would appear on the list.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. You would provide $23,000,000 the first year, $24,000,000 the following year, and $24,000,000 the next following year, making up the total.

Admiral PEOPLES. That would be approximately the amount necessary to be appropriated.

Mr. CANNON. The $30,000,000 would be for obligation.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. The appropriations would be $23,000,000, $24,000,000 and $24,000,000.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. I doubt if you would want all three amounts in this legislation.

Mr. CANNON. That would be in conformity with the law.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Admiral PEOPLES. This plan is somewhat along this line: Take a major project, like the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, for instance, with an authorization of $6,325,000, to be built over a period of 3 years. There would be $2,000,000 appropriated this year, $2,000,000 appropriated next year, and $2,325,000 the following year.

Mr. LUDLOW. Is it your thought that this would be a finished program in 3 years, so that this would be an end to the public-building program for some time?

Admiral PEOPLES. No, sir; because we have eligible projects running to more than $200,000,000.

Mr. LUDLOW. But the future would have to depend on a future program.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. What this would do would be to take that list of projects in the 1-year and 2-year program, and spread them over 3

years.

Admiral PEOPLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. With an annual appropriation of approximately $23,000,000.

Mr. WOODRUM. As against $60,000,000 for each of the 2 years 1935 and 1936, and $65,000,000 for 1934.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LUDLOW. From the standpoint of the public interest, will that pretty well take care of the building requirements at the end of 3 years, or will there then come a time when you will not need additional buildings?

Mr. MARTIN. The needs are decreasing all the time, but you will have replacements and extensions, and you will have small communities that will become offices of the first class, and they will feel entitled to buildings. You will also have places where it is impossible for the Post Office Department to provide decent quarters.

Mr. LUDLOW. I understand that changes due to growth will create conditions where public buildings will be needed, but I wonder if this would not take care of the major needs of the country.

Mr. MARTIN. That may be. It would take care of a large percentage of the major needs.

Mr. BACON. Does this eligible program contemplate going any higher than second-class offices?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. $10,000 of receipts is the minimum.

Mr. PURDUM. I want to be sure if my understanding of this is correct. It is our understanding that this $70,000,000 would take care of the needed large projects, and one project practically for every congressional district in the United States during the 3-year period. Is that the understanding?

Mr. WOODRUM. That is the committee's understanding.

Mr. PURDUM. I would like to refer back to what I said a moment ago, namely, that there are some congressional districts in the United States that have a large number of eligible projects. A number of them are very meritorious. I previously mentioned that there was one congressional district in the United States, where the postal receipts of the eligible projects therein, are greater than those in some States of the Union. If that rule should prevail, there would be only one building for that congressional district in 3 years. Similar conditions obtain in certain other congressional districts in the country. Looking at it from the equitable standpoint, or the standpoint of fairness, justice, and right, it seems to me that should not be so.

ESTIMATED

APPROPRIATION

REQUIREMENT
PROGRAM

FOR ANNUAL BUILDING

Mr. MCMILLAN. I have been engaged with a conference committee with the Senate, and was unable to be present during most of the discussion. I do wish to ask Admiral Peoples a question or two. Mr. WOODRUM. Certainly, proceed.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Admiral, on the basis of your experience, with the operation of the Procurement Division's work during the past several years, and in view of the public need for these buildings, what, in your judgment, would be a conservative estimate of the amount that the Government should expend from year to year in providing for its public-buildings program?

Admiral PEOPLES. Based on the list here of $201,000,000 of eligible projects, it would take 3 years to clean it up going at the rate of approximately $60,000,000 or $65,000,000 a year.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Then you will find yourself in this position: If the $70,000,000 authorization program, as here suggested, is put into effect over a 3-year period, at the end of that period you will find the needs relatively as great as if we had an annual $65,000,000 annual expenditure, or even more than if you should go along with the regular program of $50,000,000 or $60,000,000 that you have heretofore carried.

Admiral PEOPLES. Not quite so much, because the list of eligible projects, or the projects now eligible under the law, run up to a total of about $201,000,000 throughout the whole country at the present time. Now, as to what the situation may be 3 years from now: If you went ahead and appropriated that money, we would spread the work and wipe it out at the end of 3 years. Then the situation at the end of 3 years from now would not be as bad as it is at the present time. There will be a good many communities, however, that will undoubtedly qualify under the law with respect to postal receipts, because that is a situation that is changing from month to month in the communities. In other words, where the postal receipts are $9,500, at the end of the next postal quarter, in many of the communities, the postal receipts will be over $10,000. We anticipate

that, because the Post Office Department has stated that this is the biggest year in the history of the country so far as postal receipts are concerned.

Mr. MARTIN. There is another factor to be considered: The average cost per project under the previous program has been $171,000, while the average cost under the remaining eligible projects is slightly over $100,000, showing that you are taking care of your major projects. Within the 3-year period, under the program you are now discussing, you would be able to take care of very nearly all the major projects, leaving for future consideration the smaller projects where there are no Federal buildings.

Mr. MCMILLAN. It has been developed as a result of this program, as I see it, during the past 3 years, that the country now looks with some degree of anticipation for the construction of buildings where they are needed on the basis of the receipts of the Post Office Department in such communities. I assume, too, that you have, as a result of your appropriations, a set-up in your organization to carry on this program. Now, if the program is reduced, what effect will that have on your organization personnel that you have employed for the purpose of carrying out these building programs?

Admiral PEOPLES. Well, we are letting go now about 200. On the basis of the program that has been under discussion, of $23,000,000, with an authorization amounting to $70,000,000 over a period of 3 years, there would have to be a further heavy reduction. Of course, we could go ahead under this program and select sites and buy them, and plans could be drawn. The projects would be going on the market not as quickly as heretofore, and naturally, we would require less personnel.

Mr. REYNOLDS. I think we should bear in mind the program we will have within the next few years for the Social Security Board. We have been studying the social-security requirements throughout the country. It has been indicated, that in designing buildings in various geographical centers for this activity, consideration may be given to construction of strictly commercial units. The buildings may be located away from business centers of the cities, which, of course, would be the economical thing to do as the savings in land cost would be material. However, it does, in any event, run into quite a lot of money.

Mr. MCMILLAN. My thought is that we should try to arrive at what is a conservative estimate of the requirements in the way of a building program on an annual basis. I am not very much in sympathy with running up hill 1 year and down hill the next year, thereby delaying the building program of the country, or holding up the construction of buildings that the people have a reasonable right to expect. That would be something like the building program of the Navy, which has suffered as a result of reducing expenditures over some periods of time. Then later on, we are called upon to spend millions of dollars in excess of the normal requirements. The same picture, it occurs to me, would follow the building program submitted here. We should provide the public buildings that are required in the public. interest, and I think we could arrive at some conservative figure based on the needs of the country. Where we need such a program, it should be undertaken and carried through every year.

Mr. PURDUM. I have before me a sheet showing a tentative $23,000,000 program, dated May 15, 1937. It has 12 projects, and there are not over 7 or 8 of these projects that include a postal activity. I know of some very important projects that are not in this list. However, I notice on the list, one particularly important project, at Carville, La., where the lepers of this country are housed. ́ The tentative estimate is $1,515,000. At this place the leprosarium is located. Every night there is danger from fire, according to information I have received. There is another one which is not on the list above referred to; at Harrisonburg, Va. There is an immediate need there, but it has been put off from year to year. That includes a courthouse, post office, accommodations for the Forest Service, and other governmental agencies. That is not on the list mentioned above and dated May 15, 1937.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Would it not, as a result of the instances you have given us, be better for the Government to undertake to ascertain what would be the conservative amount of money necessary from year to year to carry on this building program so as to take care of such things as you have mentioned?

Mr. PURDUM. You have asked me that question, and I think I have a right to answer it: I would say that $23,000,000 is very conservative. There is another place, I would like to mention: At San Juan, P. R. I personally know that we are operating under the most adverse conditions there. I feel sure that the people of any district represented by any Representative in this room would be very active in demanding immediate steps taken to remedy a situation like that which exists at San Juan.

Down there in that hot country, they are working the mails in a basement under the most adverse conditions. I have witnessed that condition myself at San Juan, and I tell you it is a shame. I have always been for economy, but there are cases like this one where remedial action should be promptly taken.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Under present conditions, this $23,000,000 is obviously not enough, and it seems to me that we ought to be able to get together, in the light of our experience, and arrive at some amount that would be conservative, and which we would be amply justified in appropriating.

EXPENDITURES FOR LAND AND CONSTRUCTION OUTSIDE THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA FISCAL YEARS 1926 TO 1934

Mr. WOODRUM. How much did we spend for buildings outside of the District of Columbia, on an average annually, prior to the time that we began to make these emergency appropriations?

Admiral PEOPLES. Commencing with the 1926 program?

Mr. MARTIN. We will have to furnish that figure for the record.

Statement showing the expenditures for land and construction outside the District of of Columbia for the fiscal years 1926 to 1934, inclusive