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and make arrangements for the administrative offices of Mr. Alexander of the Resettlement Administration and Mr. Bennett, of the Soil Conservation Service, to occupy approximately 15,000 square feet for each of those organizations in the South Building.

That made it impossible to transfer the Forest Service personnel from the Atlantic Building to the South Building, and they have requested permission to retain possession of the Atlantic Building. It is this request that makes the Department's submission of a supplemental estimate necessary.

The Atlantic Building is an old structure, very unsatisfactory, and not at all desirable from the standpoint of department use, and unless the circumstances were extremely urgent, the Department, I am sure, would attempt to make some other arrangements.

Mr. WOODRUM. Is there not money allotted to the Soil Conservation Service and the Resettlement Administration for rent?

Mr. Nelson. The Soil Conservation Service has authority to pay rent in the District of Columbia, and, of course, in connection with allotments made to the Resettlement Administration, money is available to the Resettlement Administration for the payment of rent. But our situation is that we could not use Resettlement funds for the payment of rent for the Forest Service.

Mr. McMILLAN. What becomes of the money now available for the payment of rent by the Resettlement Administration and the Soil Conservation Service?

Mr. NELSON. In the case of Resettlement Administration, I am assuming that their curtailment of allotments this year will be far in excess of any savings that come to them as a result of being able to

As a matter of fact, the Resettlement Administration has lost 50,000 square feet in Temporary Building F, which is scheduled for demolition immediately after the 1st of July. They have been compelled to provide other arrangements for the people who have been occupying that building.

Mr. TABER. I do not see why an allotment from the Soil Conservation Service and the Resettlement Administration funds in the socalled relief bill would not take care of this situation.

Mr. NELSON. I presume that if legislative authorization was given for such a transfer it would be entirely appropriate, but the Department

Mr. TABER (interposing). Do you mean that this Atlantic Building is just occupied by the Forest Service?

Mr. Nelson. The entire building is occupied by the Forest Service.
Mr. LUDLOW. It has been there many years.
Mr. NELSON. Yes; many years.
Mr. Ludlow. How many years?
Mr. NELSON. Thirty years.

Mr. TABER. Is there not any space in the main building that you could put them in?

Mr. NELSON. Not an inch.
Mr. TABER. Every inch in the main building is filled up?

Mr. NELSON. There has been a tremendous increase in personnel that has to be taken care of.

Mr. Ludlow. How many rooms are there in the south building? Mr. Nelson. As far as units are concerned—that is, space between piers—there are 3,500.


Mr. LUDLOW. What is the floor space?
Mr. NELSON. Something over a million square feet.

Mr. Bacon. What is the total floor space in the main Agricultural Department building and the annex?

Mr. NELSON. I should say approximately 1,300,000 square feet. Mr. Bacon. It is one of the largest buildings in the world, is it not?

Mr. NELSON. Yes; one of the largest and one of the most economical of all Government buildings, distinctly and entirely for utility purposes.

Mr. TABER. How much floor space do you rent outside?

Mr. Haley. We have a statement as of March 15, 1937, which shows a total area of 444,181 square feet.

Mr. Taber. How much are you paying for it?
Mr. HALEY. We are paying $462,013.

Mr. TABER. How much are you paying for this Atlantic Building that we are talking about?

Mr. Haley. Thirty thousand dollars.
Mr. TABER. How many square feet are in that building?
Mr. HALEY. 38,337 square feet.

Mr. Nelson. That is probably the cheapest building rented by the Government in the District of Columbia, the rate being 79 cents per square foot.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Has the Forest Service heretofore used the Atlantic Building?

Mr. NELSON. Yes; for 30 years.

Mr. McMILLAN. And it is now proposed to turn over the entire building to the Forest Service?

Mr. NELSON. They have had the entire building all the time.

Mr. McMillan. Then what is the necessity for asking $30,000 to pay for rent for the Atlantic Building?

Mr. WOODRUM. They were going to move the Forest Service to the new building of the Agricultural Department. You can, if you have the legislative authority, use the money provided for rent for the Resettlement Administration and the Soil Conservation Service to pay for the rent for the Forest Service, can you not?

Mr. Nelson. In our 1938 appropriation we asked for $30,000 less than for 1937 in anticipation of giving up the Atlantic Building.

Mr. McMILLAN. If funds are provided for rent for the Resettlement Administration and the Soil Conservation Service, is it not possible, if we transfer these funds to the other Service, to take care of that rent?

Mr. NELSON. I do not question that.

Mr. WOODRUM. That will accomplish your purpose, if we give you the legislative authority for transferring this amount from the Resettlement Administration and the Soil Conservation Service.

Mr. NELSON. That would make it possible.

Mr. LUDLOW. What is the absolute requirement of the Forest Service for space?

Mr. Nelson. They need every inch of the 38,000 square feet in the Atlantic Building, because their personnel has been increased very materially in the last few years on account of emergency activities, particularly in connection with the E. C. W. work.

Mr. LUDLOW. Are not the requirements of some of your departmental services diminishing so that the Forest Service might be squeezed into the South Building?

Mr. NELSON. I do not think so.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Was there not considerable space left when the triple A was wound up?

Mr. Nelson. They had many of their people in the old Post Office Department Building.

Mr. TABER. What is the idea, frankly, of providing space in the future in the main building for a so-called emergency activity that is supposed to be on a liquidating basis, and putting a service that is supposed to be permanent in an outside building? I cannot understand the logic of that kind of a situation.

Mr. NELSON. The S. C. S. is not classified as a temporary organization.

Mr. TABER. The Resettlement Administration is not a permanent organization, is it?

Mr. NELSON. Not as yet.
Mr. TABER. I hope not.

Mr. Bacon. How much is now being paid for space occupied by the Resettlement Administration and the Soil Conservation Service which will be vacated when those organizations move into the main buildings?

Mr. NELSON. In the case of the Soil Conservation Service they are moving Mr. Bennett and his immediate staff out of the Standard Oil Building on Pennsylvania Avenue, and they are abandoning the entire space in Temporary Building F, a Government-owned building, which is to be demolished.

They are utilizing space in the Standard Oil Building made available as the result of this transfer for a portion of this consolidation, and in the case of the Resettlement Administration they are abandoning 55,000 square feet of space in Building F and 8,868 square feet in the Carry Building

Mr. BACON. How much will those two activities save in dollars and cents by moving in the main building, where you are going to give up certain commercial space? How much are you paying for the commercial space today?

Mr. Nelson. In the case of the Soil Conservation Service, the transfer from the small building into the Standard Oil Building will cost them an additional $5,000, because of the higher rental rate. It is believed that this is administratively desirable, because instead of having the activity scattered in six buildings it will be possible to have it largely in the Standard Oil Building and in the main building of the Department.

Mr. Bacon. Therefore the saving, as far as the Soil Conservation Service is concerned, is $5,000 additional rent, so there is no saving at all.

Mr. NELSON. It will save approximately $10,000.
Mr. Haley. They have to give up 5,000 square feet in Building F.
Mr. Bacon. I appreciate that.

Mr. Nelson. They will save between 5 and 10 thousand dollars due to the change.

Mr. Bacon. How much will the other activities save?

Mr. Nelson. It is difficult to say, directly, what the Resettlement Administration will save because they are in the process of a reduction in personnel and the elimination of buildings, and they are also


ing F.

involved in the abandoment of 55,000 square feet of space in Build

Presumably, it would be fair to say that the Resettlement Administration will save a dollar per square foot for the space they get in the South Building. I know of no more safisfactory way of expressing it than that.

Mr. WOODRUM. How much will that amount to?
Mr. NELSON. About $15,000.
Mr. WOODRUM. So the two together will save about $25,000.
Mr. NELSON. I think so.

Mr. WOODRUM. Do you see any time ahead when the Forest Service can be taken over into the new building, or is it to be kept in the Atlantic Building in perpetuity?

Mr. NELSON. At the present time the extensible building is enlarged to its maximum. If the personnel of the Department will remain as is, I can see no way in which the Forest Service can be accommodated in the South Building.

Mr. Bacon. What is the total personnel that comes under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of Agriculture?

Mr. Nelson. In the city of Washingon?

Mr. Bacon. Yes; in the city of Washington, and that includes the Resettlement Administration, the Forest Service, the Soil Conservation Service, and all the rest.

Mr. Nelson. Approximately 14,400 at the present time.

Mr. Bacon. How many of the 14,400 are now in the main Agricultural Building and the extension?

Mr. NELSON. 6,265, all told.

Mr. Bacon. Just a little over half of the total number are in that big building? Mr. NELSON. Yes. Mr. BACON. And the rest are scattered around town?

Mr. NELSON. Yes. The Bureau of Public Roads, the Forest Service, the Fixed Nitrogen Laboratory, the Weather Bureau, the Resettlement Administration, the Soil Conservation Service, and the triple A; practically every branch of the Department has some outside offices.

Mr. Ludlow. Was it not thought when the South Building was built that you were doing to take care of the department in toto in that building?

Mr. NELSON. At that time the Department had approximately 4,400 employees.

Mr. TABER. How many employees are in the triple A now?

Mr. Nelson. I cannot tell you off hand; I can insert that figure in the record.

Mr. TABER. Is it as much as a thousand, or over a thousand?

Mr. NELSON. Over 500 people; I do not know the exact number, but I can put that figure in the record. One thousand two hundred and seventy-four employees of Agriculture Adjustment Administration on March 24, 1937.

Mr. McMILLAN. In order to house all of the department employees in a building such as you now have in the main department building, you will have to have another building of about the same size as the building you have now.

Mr. Nelson. Very probably.

Mr. McMILLAN. And by the time that is finished there would probably be a necessity for another building?

Mr. WOODRUM. If Congress continues to pass laws setting up new bureaus.

Mr. Nelson. The responsibility rests on the appropriating organization.

Mr. Taber. You are using 173 square feet for every single employee in the main building, and that is a tremendous set-up and a waste of space.

Mr. Nelson. Have you ever visited the main building?
Mr. Bacox. You said you have 1,300,000 square feet of space.
Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. Taber. And you have 7,500 employees. That would be 173 square feet per employee.

Mr. NELSON. There is a variation of from 300 square feet to the employee in an organization where they have a large laboratory installation, such as in the Bureau of Chemistry and Soils, to an organization like the A. A. A. where we have had only 40 square feet per employee.

Mr. Bacon. As I understand it, you have somewhere between 500 and 1,000 employees in the A. A. A. in the main building. Now, that is a liquidating proposition, and I am wondering why you do not move them out, and move a permanent organization like the Forest Service in the main building. I understood that the A. A. A. was in process of liquidation. The act has been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, in a unanimous decision, and I think you could move that force out of the building, and get something like the Forest Service, which is a permanent organization, into the main building.

Mr. NELSON. Under the new Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act, the character of the A. A. A. was materially changed, but they retained a very considerable volume of business. A considerable number of people are still engaged in that work.

Mr. Bacon. We may be talking at cross-purposes. Are you referring to the Soil Conservation activities?

Mr. NELSON. There is the Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act, and the A. A. A. organization is utilized to pay farmers certain amounts in connection with the control of soil erosion and various other purposes, such as conserving the fertility of the soil, and so forth. Then there is the Soil Conservation Service itself, which is an organization set up by Congress to carry on research and demonstrational work for the benefit of the entire country. Those two are separate and distinct organizations.

Mr. Haley. The Agricultural Adjustment Administration at one time was employing three 8-hour shifts before the Supreme Court decision. Then they furloughed hundreds of employees, reducing it down to a one 8-hour shift in the Old Post Office Department Building. That is where the real curtailment occurred. They have given up. some space in that building at the request of the National Park Service which has been assigned to other branches of the Government.

Mr. Ludlow. What is the average rental paid by the Government per square foot in the rented buildings in the District of Columbia?

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