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going to carry 200 enrollees in each of these camps, which will require, as has already been stated, additional supervision.

Mr. TABER. But less overhead rather than more, when you get them together.

Mr. Bacon. You can move the foremen from the 500 closed camps and put them in the camps that you retain?

Mr. McENTEE. That is true. But we work on the basis of six foremen in a camp today with 163 men. We will probably need at least seven or perhaps eight, depending on the type of work.

Mr. Bacon. You are closing 500 camps and you have 6 foremen in each of the 500 camps?

Mr. McENTEE. Not today.

Mr. Bacon. Where would you transfer these foremen, to the camps you are keeping open?

Mr. McENTEE. Some will be transferred and some will be dropped because we already have foremen in the camps that we are keeping

Mr. Taber. You will reduce your overhead quite considerably when you consolidate those camps, will you not?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes.

Mr. TABER. So that would reflect more than a 20 percent cut rather than less?

I frankly cannot see why there should not be a 20 percent cut all the way down the line.

Mr. McENTEE. You are speaking of the list we had. I said it was about 333,000 enrollees. But Congress has told us, as I understand its intent as expressed in the new bill, that it is its idea to liberalize enrollments. They have taken away the relief restriction, and we are going to probably have as many as 300,000.

Mr. TABER. You may have that many when you start the quarter, but at the end of the quarter it is going to fall off, like it did last year.

Mr. McENTEE. I do not think it will be off that much, Congressman.

Mr. TABER. You do not think it will go off more than it has this year?

Mr. McENTEE. No, sir. This action of Congress offers the opportunity to the boys who want to join the corps. We have had to refuse thousands of them who wanted to join the corps in the past, on account of the relief restriction. When you get personnel that wants to work, the turn-over will be less.

Mr. Bacon. The chances are that the quality of your personnel next year may be a little higher?

Mr. McENTEE. We think it will, Congressman.


Mr. TABER. For printing and binding you have an item of $100,000 more. Why do you need to have all that amount?

Mr. DICKEY. That takes care of all of the forms that are necessary, providing for the accounting which must be done and the work reports that must be turned in. It provides also for the pay checks, and all that sort of thing.

Mr. Taber. Why should it be more than $100,000 more than it was during this current year?

Captain BEAN. Every agency has asked for more blank forms, and we have not stocked up on blank forms.

Mr. TABER. Is there anything for which the printing and binding item is used outside of blank forms?

Captain BEAN. It is used for blank forms and all Government reports. We have to pay for these green sheets and everything else out of the C. C. C. funds. The price of printing has gone up.

Mr. Taber. Do you have any publications that you get out?
Mr. Dickey. Very few. Mr. Fechner's report is about all.

Captain Bean. There is some textual material used in the camps for instruction purposes.

Mr. Bacon. Do you print any recruiting material?
Captain Bean. None whatsoever.
Mr. Ludlow. Do you get out any periodicals?
Mr. McENTEE. Not as such.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Will you insert in the record, Mr. McEntee, a break-down of your item for communications, so as to show the amount that has been expended for long-distance telephone calls in the present year, and the amount you intend to expend for that purpose in the next fiscal year?

Mr. McENTEE. For 1937, the estimated expenditure was $86,310; for 1938, the estimated expenditure will be $78,900.


Mr. WiggLESWORTH. Also, will you break down item 13, repairs and alterations, which runs 12 million dollars this year and 10 million dollars next year for special miscellaneous expenses? Will you give us a break-down of that, insofar as you can?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; that break-down appears as a part of the budget submitted herewith.



Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Am I correct in saying that out of the 350 million dollars you are asking for, approximately 114 million dollars of that is for enrollees and the balance for overhead?

Mr. McENTEE. Materials for structures, and things of that description.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. The 114 million dollars does not include subsistence?

Mr. McENTEE. It does not.
Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. That amounts to 54 million dollars?
Mr. McENTEE. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You have agreed to furnish us with a statement showing the percentages as between what is paid to the enrollees and what is chargeable to overhead?

Mr. McENTEE. I think we can give you that.

Mr. Dickey. For all personal services, 55 percent of the appropriation is required; for personal services of enrollees, the amount is, roughly, 33 percent of the total appropriation. The amount for all other personal services is that difference between those two amounts.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I did not quite understand that.

Mr. Dickey. Of this proposed appropriation the total for personal services for enrollees, and for everybody, amounts to approximately 55 percent.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is the amount paid to enrollees?

Mr. DICKEY. And to all other people who are paid wages and salaries.

Mr. Bacon. Thirty-three percent goes to the enrollees themselves?
Mr. DICKEY. Thirty-three percent of the total appropriation.
Mr. Bacon. Therefore, 22 percent goes to overhead?
Mr. DICKEY. I would not say it is all overhead.
Mr. Bacon. Including supervisory positions?
Mr. DICKEY. Yes, sir; they are the doers.

Mr. Bacon. In the field and in Washington, including supervisory positions, the amount is 22 percent?

Mr. Dickey. That is approximately between 8 and 10 percent.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Of the total appropriation, 33 percent goes to the enrollees?

Mr. DICKEY. In cash, but really more than that, due to the subsistence item. There is approximately 14 or, 15 percent in the subsistence item, and there is also the clothing item and the housing item. About 65 to 70 percent goes to the enrollee in a direct way.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I wish you would break that down so we can have it in detail.

Mr. DICKEY. That is shown in the budget submitted herewith, I believe.

WEDNESDAY, July 21, 1937.





Mr. CANNON. We have before us in House Document No. 298 a proposition to increase the limitation for salaries and administrative expenses of the Civilian Conservation Corps from $200,000 to $305,000. What is the occasion for that increase?

Mr. FECHNER. Mr. Chairman, that was submitted in the original budget that was presented to the committee. I will be glad to give several reasons why we felt that increase necessary over the amount of money we have had for the past fiscal year.

The new legislation continuing the Civilian Conservation Corps for 3 years, from July 1, 1937, imposed upon the Director and the Director's office a number of very substantial additional responsibilities and duties, and in anticipation of doing what that legislation calls on us to do, we anticipated the need of an increase in personnel.


Four additional investigators have been requested, each of whose work will be definitized. One will be trained particularly in the proper method of making inventories, thereby making it possible to obtain the utmost and proper use of our equipment and supplies

These inventories will be systematized, permitting a more speedy and efficient interchange of these items throughout the corps, effecting, we believe, a considerable saving to the Government.

Another special investigator will be a technician, thoroughly familiar with the work projects of the Civilian Conservation Corps. He will make various studies with a view toward eliminating any types of work heretofore performed by the corps, on which the Civilian Conservation Corps has not proven a successful operating unit.

A third man will have special training in the feeding of the corps; the proper preparation and handling of foods. We believe that, although the Army has done a splendid job in the feeding of the corps, there are certain improvements which can be made, not only in a substantial monetary saving, but in better food, which will considerably increase the morale of the corps.

The fourth man will be a highly qualified man, experienced in safety work. This phase of the inspection of the corps is a very important one. One single fatal accident or a permanent-disability case prevented will offset a year's salary for the proposed employee.

The four additional administrative assistants will be largely office men as opposed to the field work of the above four investigators. One of these men will devote his time to purchases and procurement. A second man will keep a careful check on personnel, making a careful study with a view toward eliminating or reducing unnecessary jobs. The remaining two administrative assistants are for the purpose of assisting this office in the added duties and increased responsibilities imposed upon it by the new legislation.

The Civilian Conservation Corps has, at the present time, approximately 40,000 automotive vehicles in operation. The cost of maintaining these vehicles is more than we feel it should be. Through standardization of methods of repair, consolidation of some of our automotive repair shops, careful purchase of repair parts, and so forth, a considerable saving can be effected. It wili be the job of the three additional mechanical engineers to study these points and improve this situation.

The increased duties of the Director's office require the services of an assistant statistician. For the same reason, the additional stenographic and clerical help is required.

Heretofore, many of the forms required by the corps were purchased by the several services from funds specifically allotted them. The increased amount requested in the 1938 estimate will cover these items.

New office equipment is required. Certain equipment now in use is worn out, necessitating replacement. The increased personnel will require other new office appliances. Some of the present equipment in use at this office has been borrowed. New equipment will be needed to replace these items.

The seven passenger vehicles are necessary to supply the four additional investigators and three additional mechanical engineers with Government-owned automobiles, which has proven less expensive than those privately owned. The increase in travel expense is required largely for the personnel noted immediately above.

Mr. Ludlow. Would that additional charge of $105,000 be a nonrecurring one?

Mr. FECHNER. No, sir.

Mr. Ludlow. I thought you were building up a force to ascertain certain things or to perform certain temporary duties.

Mr. FECHNER. They are not temporary, and they would have continuing duties.

Mr. Ludlow. I do not think you would need as much personnel in the future, after you have accomplished this temporary task you have in mind.

Mr. FECHNER. We are only asking authority to employ approximately 12 additional people in responsible positions. Then, we will have to have more stenographers and clerks.

Mr. Ludlow. Then, they would be permanent personnel.
Mr. FECHNER. Yes, sir.


Mr. WOODRUM. Will you give us a list of your present personnel, with the positions they fill, and then, in a parallel column, a list of the proposed personnel under this authorization, with a statement of the salaries and positions?

Mr. FECHNER. I will do so.

Mr. WOODRUM. And, also, a comparative statement prepared in the same way showing your other expenses.

Mr. FECHNER. I will supply that for the record. (The statements requested are as follows:)

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Executive order:

Grade 19. Director.
Grade 18. Assistant director.
Grade 15. Assistant to Director.

Special counsel.
Grade 13. Special assistant

Chief statistician.

Safety engineer.
Grade 12. Special investigators.
Grade 11. Special assistant.

Liaison officer.
Chief clerk...
Secretary to the Director.
Administrative assistant.

Mechanical engineer.
Grade 9. Assistant statistician.
Grade 8. Secretary to Assistant Director.
Grade 7. Secretary.

Chief file clerk..

Grade 6. Secretarial stenographer..

Correspondence clerk.
Statistical clerk..

Grade 5. Secretarial stenographer.

Assistant chief file clerk.

Grade 4. Clerk-stenographer.

Typist stencil cutter..

Chauffeur to the director.
Grade 4. Junior clerks...




5, 200
5, 200
3, 600
3, 200
3, 200
3, 200
3, 200
3, 200
3. 000
2, 600
2, 300
2, 000
1, 800
1, 800
1, 800
1, 800
1, 800
1, 620
1, 620
1, 620
1, 440
1, 440
1, 440
1, 440
1, 440

2,300.00 2,000.00 2,000.00



1,800.00 1,800.00 1.800,00 1,800.00

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