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be four. There might be three. There will have to be one to review purchases. Also, in the operation of the corps, we believe that three is a great deal of duplication; for instance in the repairing of trucks and other equipment around the country. The War Department repairs their trucks and their equipment; the Interior Department repairs theirs; the Forest Service repairs their equipment. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Are these repairs reflected in this item?

Mr. McENTEE. No, sir. I am trying to answer your question as to what these administrative assistants are going to do, and I am drawing that picture of how these repairs are carried on. It is the Director's thought to consolidate them. It is going to take somebody in his office to take charge and be responsible for that program. It means the elimination of a lot of overhead, and that means the elimination of a lot of personnel, and it is going to save a large amount of money. We may find that there is not the duplication, but we feel that there is at this time considerable duplication in all departments in doing a job that could be handled, perhaps, by any one of them.


(See p. 314)

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You are asking for an increase in your item for equipment of over $2,000,000—from $6,500,000 to $8,600,000. What is the reason for that?

Mr. McENTEE. We bought very little equipment last year. This equipment takes a beating in all these camps---for instance, on the side roads, as you all know who have ever been to those camps. The equipment wears out very rapidly.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Have you a break-down of what is contemplated to acquire with that $8,600,000?

Mr. McENTEE. In the Interior Department, sir, or in the total?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It appears under item 30 in your "Other obligations."

Mr. McENTEE. That statement appears in the Budget estimate presented to the committee.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How about your rent item? That is going up $100,000, despite the fact that you are decreasing your work 20 percent. What is your explanation for that?

Mr. McENTEE. I assume that is on account of new leases and rents being raised. But the rent is down, I think, as compared with last year.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. No; according to item 11 it is moving up.

General TyNER. There is no change in the War Department estimate.

Captain BEAN. The expenditures in 1937 in that instance were estimated, and they did not know the actual expenditures, and so left them blank; but they have estimated for 1938.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You do not know the actual expenditure for 1937?

Captain BEAN. No, sir. We are only in the middle of the year now.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This is the fiscal yeark is it not?

Captain Bean. Yes, sir; but we will not complete it until the middle of next month.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It is only 2 days off. You must have a pretty close estimate.

Captain BEAN. Yes, sir; but the obligations for 1937 were tabulated differently from the Budget break-down. They were tabulated more for statistical reference.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Will you put a statement in the record explaining that?

Captain Bean. Yes, sir.
(The statement requested is as follows:)

Statement of expenditures through March 1937
Object of expenditure:
Personal services, enrollees-

$93, 339, 136. 88 Other employees.-

66, 780, 602. 34 Supplies and materials.

82, 284, 694. 29 Rent: Equipment

804, 947. 30 Buildings and land.

541, 866. 42 Construction, maintenance, and repair of buildings and utilities by contract: Employees

3, 299. 02 Do.

83, 571. 85
Other payments on contracts (including supplies). 1, 697, 341. 97
Contractual services:

584, 297. 08 Travel, including subsistence.

5, 847, 275. 87 Transportation of things.

2, 223, 557. 87 Printing and binding

89, 386. 12 Advertising---

6, 760. 53 Heat, light, power, water, electricity

1, 070, 089. 07 Other--

5, 243, 277. 55 Equipment purchased.

2, 878, 500. 53 Total.-

263, 478, 594. 69



Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Let us take up the items of printing and binding, advertising, and publication of notices. I see there is an increase of $112,000, roughly, in those two items. What is the explanation of that? You are going to spend $355,000, if this request is allowed, for printing and binding, advertising, and publication of notices.

Mr. McENTEE. That works out of the general fund. I think Mr Dickey can explain that.

Mr. DICKEY. Some of those printing and binding items in the last fiscal year were actually taken care of out of a general fund. They are definitely allocated for this fiscal year. As Captain Bean explained a minute ago, the 1937 estimates shown here are on a different basis from the Budget basis, and this year they are being put into line with the actual Budget basis; and that increase is possibly more apparent than real.



Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You have 1,166 workers in the departmental force for 1938, as compared with 1,226 for the present fiscal year?

Captain BEAN. That figure should be 1,100 even. I was not able to have these green sheets cut over.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. That is something less than a 5 percent decrease, is it not, in dollars, as between the 2 years, although your work is being cut 20 percent?

Mr. McEnter. That is the Washington overhead, sir; and while this reduction in number of camps is going to cut the field personnel, it does not very materially affect the Washington set-up, because it perhaps takes just as much.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. It ought to be reflected to some extent, ought it not?

Mr. McENTEE. Well, it will be in the coming year, because all the departments are being requested to make a reduction in personnel I am sure that request will be met much more fully than it is there.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I notice you are carrying exactly the same number of Reserve officers, for instance.

Captain BEAN. That is in the departments. There are only two Reserve officers in the departments.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is right.
Captain BEAN. We have a thousand decrease in the field.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How about the field situation? What is the total personnel that you are going to carry?

Captain BEAN. About 30,000.

Mr. WiggleSWORTH. Yes; 30,577 in 1938 as compared with 32,982 for the present year.

Captain BEAN. It should be 30,400 for 1938, but I did not have a chance to cut the green sheets over. It is 32,982 for the present year.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It is roughly a 6%-percent reduction in expenditure as compared with 20 percent in camps.

Captain Bean. That is due to the fact that these camps are being gradually taken out. Where we would have to carry this personnel for half a year or so, if they were full-year camps, it would show a much greater decrease. You notice that the green sheets carry the fractions 0.2 or 0.55 in connection with the personnel. That is because we have to carry them for 3 or 6 months.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is this item "temporary field”? Is that dollars?

Captain BEAN. That is dollars; yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You expect to spend over $5,000,000 in the field for temporary personnel?

Captain BEAN. There is practically the same amount of supplies going in there; yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Briefly, what is your temporary field personnel?

Captain BEAN. That item is for hiring people to unload freight cars as they come in, to save demurrage, temporary repairs, and so forth.

Mr. TABER. Do not the C. C. C. boys do that?
Captain BEAN. No, sir.
Mr. TABER. Why not?

Captain BEAN. It is not the policy of the Director to use any of the boys on that type of work. In many cases they are not there; they are out on other work.

Mi TABER. Do you mean it is too hard work?
Captain Bean. No, sir.

Mr. McENTEE. It is not that. The boys come in on the trucks and probably take the stuff away; but it has to be unloaded first.

Captain BEAN. That includes the subsistence delivered at railheads, and the cars have to be unloaded.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It would seem to me, offhand, that we ought to be able to make a greater reduction in administrative expenditures, in view of the reductions we are making in the work which the Corps undertakes.


Let me ask you one other question. What determines the salaries to these people? Are you subject to the Classification Act?

Captain BEAN. I believe not, but we follow its salary scales.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Throughout?

Captain Bean. Yes, sir. We follow the salaries in the Classification Act.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Both as to departmental employees and in the field?

Captain BEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You are not subject to any extent to the requirements of the civil service?

Captain Bean. No, sir; but we get people in the departmental service off of the civil service lists, from the reemployment roll.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How about the 30,000 workers in the field? Captain BEAN. That was explained to you by the representatives of the different departments, as to how they are hired.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. None of those are subject to civil-service requirements?

Captain BEAN. No, sir; we pay them according to the classification act in the localities in which they are employed.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. Are they or are they not subject to the Federal civil-service requirements?

Captain BEAN. They are not subject to examination.

Mr. McENTEE. In only one agency, the Soil Conservation Service, have they been subject to civil service. I think it is a legal question whether this bill does not take them out from under the civil service. I think in the legislation creating the Soil Conservation Service that was put under civil service, and the Commission ruled that that included the personnel of the Civilian Conservation Corps personnel, and they have always been so classed since that legislation went into effect. They are the only group in the Civilian Conservation Corps that comes under the Civil service except junior assistants to technicians.




Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you know what percentage of the total amount goes to overhead and what percentage goes to the enrollees?

Mr. McENTEE. The figure will approximate 10 percent of total expenditures for overhead. About 70 percent will go to enrollees, as cash subsistence, clothing, housing, and so forth. The other 20 percent would be for job materials and supplies.


Mr. Bacon. How were the technical foremen appointed when the C. C. C. camps were first organized?

Mr. McENTEE. They were selected by the technical agency charged . with the responsibility for doing the work in connection with that service.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How are they chosen now?
Mr. McENTEE. In the same way, by those departments.


Mr. Ludlow. I would like to have a little clearer explanation of the increase of $111,000 in the Washington expenses. I wonder if you could insert a break-down of your personnel by classes, provided for under this appropriation as compared with the present personnel?

How much of the $110,000 is for personnel?
Mr. McENTEE. Most of it; $71,000 is for personnel.
Mr. Ludlow. Why is an increase of $71,000 for personnel required?

Mr. McENTEE. As I stated before, it is more a question of bookkeeping than of the actual expenditure of money.

There are certain responsibilities that are transferred to the Office of Director. Some of this personnel undoubtedly will be transferred from other agencies, and of course, in that case

Mr. Ludlow (interposing). It would be charged against this appropriation, would it not?

Mr. McENTEE. It was before, too.
Mr. LUDLOW. You spoke of a $111,000 increase.

Mr. McENTEE. Say, for instance, a technician is transferred from a technical agency, coming on to our pay roll. He goes off of the pay roll of that agency and goes on our pay roll, and he is no longer paid from the funds allocated to that agency.

Mr. LUDLOW. There will be a commensurate reduction in other places?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; and we believe that will account for most of that.

Mr. Ludlow. We would like to have a statement showing those figures.

(The statement above referred to is in the Budget estimate submitted to the committee.)


Mr. McMILLAN. I want to know something about the policy under the new bill regarding the employment of Reserve officers. There has been for some time a constant problem facing many Mem

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