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personnel. But the nontechnical personnel, such as the foreman in the camps, unless they have technical qualifications, are selected from the lists which are furnished by Congressmen and Senators, largely; sometimes the central political committee, who submit lists of people that they would like us to consider, and they are selected from those lists.

Mr. WOODRUM. How about these educational advisers that we are talking about?

Mr. McENTEE. They are handled through the Office of Education, Dr. Studebaker's office.

Dr. OXLEY. The educational advisers are selected by the corps area, and the district advisers are recommended by the Office of Education in Washington and appointed by the Commissioner of Education.

Mr. WOODRUM. Proceed, Mr. McEntee.

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS WORK UNDER JURISDICTION OF THE

INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

Mr. McENTEE. The Interior Department is requesting in this Budget approximately $27,000,000. Of this sum, $8,600,000 is for operations on Indian reservations, largely involving Indian personnel and Indian enrollees. Indian camps are much more flexible than our general type of camp. The Army, as I stated before, does not handle the administration there. That is left with the technical supervision on the Indian reservations. That set-up is necessary because of racial and climatic problems.

HAWAII AND VIRGIN ISLANDS

In this $27,000,000 there is also an item of approximately $1,100,000 for operations in the Territories of Hawaii and the Virgin Islands. As with the Department of Agriculture in Puerto Rico and Alaska, the Department of the Interior in Hawaii and the Virgin Islands performs administrative as well as technical supervisory functions. They administer the camps there as the Army does here in the States.

CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES

In continental United States the Department of the Interior is charged with the technical supervision of approximately an average of 411 camps. During the fiscal year 1938 a basic division of the amounts sought by the several bureaus within the Department for cooperation in the corp's activities is as follows:

National Park Service—that would include both State parks and national parks—close to $14,000,000.

Bureau of Reclamation, $1,700,000.
Division of Grazing, $2,600,000.

General Land Office, $50,000. They have an average of one camp, which is in Wyoming. They actually have two.

We call it one, because it is a summer location, but they have two camps there for half the year, so that gives them a full-year camp. They are engaged in fighting fires in the coal mines out there. We think it is one of our most result-producing operations; that is, from the amount of money that can be saved because of the value of the coal that is in the ground.

That completes the Department of the Interior's request for funds to be allocated to that Department.

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS WORK UNDER JURISDICTION OF

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

Mr. WOODRUM. All right. What else have you?

Mr. McENTEE. There is another item here for the Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, of $29,000. This is to take care of our tabulations and forms that must be printed. We figure that it is cheaper to do it that way, because if we were to purchase the necessary equipment and machinery we would have a staff that would be idle à good deal of the time, and would be busy only when we had a large amount of work; and we believe it is much more economical to do the work in this way, on a reimbursable basis, than to set up our own force and rent our own tabulating machines, and so forth.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is in preparation for the next regular census?

Mr. McENTEE. No, sir. We use the Bureau of the Census, but they tabulate a lot of our figures and do a lot of work for our office. Our work-report forms, for instance—we have them done over there, and various printing and tabulations of that character.

Mr. WOODRUM. You think that is more economical than to try to set up your own organization?

Mr. McENTEE. Oh, yes. If we should do that, our force would be idle one-third, or perhaps one-half, of the time. We can have the entire thing done over there on a reimbursable basis, and they will simply have to put on a few additional personnel to do our work for us. They have the equipment and machinery, and some of it is quite valuable.

Mr. Bacon. I wish some of the other departments might follow your example.

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS WORK UNDER JURISDICTION OF

TREASURY DEPARTMENT

Mr. McENTEE. We have an item here of $27,000 for the Treasury Department, Public Health Service. This money is entirely devoted to the manufacture of vaccine, particularly spotted fever vaccine, which is used in the inoculating of the enrollees in areas that are infested by ticks.

Mr. Ludlow. How do these various allocations compare with last year?

Mr. McENTEE. I can give them all to you.
Mr. Ludlow. I did not mean for you to give them in detail

Mr. McENTEE. They are in this statement [indicating). They are are almost the same-about $800 less this year.

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION WORK UNDER JURISDICTION OF DEPARTMENT

OF LABOR

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Did you mention the Labor Department allocation?

Mr. McENTEE. I am coming to that right now, sir. The Department of Labor requests in this budget approximately $38,000, or an increase of $18,000 over the estimated expenditures for 1937.

We believe that increase to be entirely justified, because, as I explained when we were discussing the Labor Department before, they will have to do a great deal more field work than in past years,

when the Federal Government had relief agencies in every State. In those cases we simply utilized the relief agency back in the State, which was a Federal agency. Now some States have a very good State selection agency. Others are new, because they have never been called upon to do this selecting, and there will have to be a lot of coaching and there will have to be considerable explaining done, and it will be necessary for the Department of Labor to put on one or two, perhaps three, additional men as field men, to go out and contact the various States; and we believe—the Director's Office does, ratherthat this increase of $18,000 is justifiable for the Labor Department.

That completes the requests contained in the. Budget.

Mr. Chairman, I would be happy, if I can, to answer any questions that the members of the committee wish to ask me,

ATTENDANCE AT CONVENTIONS, ETC.

Mr. McMILLAN. Mr. McEntee, with reference to your traveling expenses, I notice that they are set out in the text of the bill at $2,000, which, for a $350,000,000 outfit, seems to me rather small.

Mr. McENTEE. That $2,000 does not apply to the travel of all persons. That $2,000 applies to attendance at non-Federal meetings. For instance, there might be a convention of technicians from an outside source; say the American Forestry Association. Now, the law, unless it is specifically authorized, prevents the attendance of anybody at a convention of that kind, because it is not a government agency. That provision was put in to authorize the attendence of whomever the Director might desire to send there. I talked with the Budget on that matter and told them that we thought it was not quite enough, and it is agreeable to the Budget that that be changed to $5,000; and I would like to ask the committee to do that.

Mr. McMILLAN. My thought was that, from the fact that you have so many agencies involved in your set-up--the War Department, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Labor and other activities of the Government-with these meetings being necessary from time to time, that the $2,000 limitation is a very small amount of money when you have an expenditure of $350,000,000 in the picture.

Mr. McENTEE. It is a very small expenditure. So far as we are concerned, you and I will not disagree on that.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is not their travel, you know.
Mr. MCMILLAN. I understand.

Mr. WOODRUM. How much did you use this year? Let us see a break-down of what you used in 1937 for that purpose.

Mr. McENTEE. We would have to get that break-down for you. Mr. DICKEY. I think it would exceed $10,000.

Mr. WOODRUM. Will you furnish the Committee with a break-down of that, showing what each meeting was, the purpose of the meeting, who went, how long they stayed, and how much they spent?

Mr. McENTEE. I was going to ask you if the committee would agree with me on that, to change that item to $5,000 instead of $2,000..

Mr. WOODRUM. That will depend on the statement that you file with us.

Mr. DICKEY. Mr. Chairman, to make that statement up for the record will take a considerable amount of time. It will have to be

It was

gone over very carefully, because it involves a large number of books in different departments.

Mr. WOODRUM. Just what is the necessity for this? The Civilian Conservation Corps is a temporary emergency agency, and its duties are well defined. Its organization is set up; it has been in operation. What is the necessity for sending representatives to attend all sorts of meetings, except just to gratify the request of some civic organization to have somebody come at Government expense to make a speech?

Mr. McENTEE. Perhaps, sir; that may be true in a number of cases; but there are sometimes meetings when it is very important. There might be some' outside expert whom the Director of the corps or some of the other agencies might want to bring in.

Mr. Woodrum. Well, name some of them. Let us see what they look like.

Mr. McENTEE. The American Safety Congress is one. necessary to have someone attend that conference last year.

Mr. WOODRUM. In the course of a year there would not be, on an average, over one a month, would there?

Mr. McENTEE. There might be—not for our office, but this covers the War Department, the Interior Department, the Agricultural Department, with the Soil Conservation and all of these agencies.

Mr. McMillan. Under this language, Mr. Chairman, it must be specifically authorized by the Director.

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. This kind of language is in the appropriation bill, is it not?

Mr. McENTEE. This is one appropriation bill for all the activities. But none of these agencies will send anybody on a C. C. C. mission without charging the C. C. C.

Mr. WOODRUM. There would be somebody representing the corps; there would not be a representative of the War Department or the Interior Department or the Agricultural Department?

Mr. MCENTEE. Oh, no.

Mr. WOODRUM. You would not have an average of over one meeting a month?

Mr. McENTEE. I believe we will. There are many of these agencies, and $2,000, I think, is going to handicap everybody; and now everything of that character must have the approval of the Director.

Mr. McMillan. Can you suggest to the committee some change in language?

Mr. MCENTEE. Only to make it $5,000 instead of $2,000.
Mr. McMillan. Any other change in the phraseology?
Mr. McENTEE. No, sir; simply substituting $5,000 for $2,000.

INCREASE IN MAN STRENGTH AS RESULT OF REDUCTION IN NUMBER

OF CAMPS

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Mr. McEntee, as I understand it, we have had over 2,000 camps this year, have we not, and we are going to have about 1,600 when the new order is set up?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; an average of 1,612. It is actually 1,500 after the first of the year.

Mr. WiggLESWORTH. That is a reduction of roughly 20 percent in camps?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Why is it that by reducing our camps to the extent of 20 percent we are only reducing our appropriations for this activity by about 12 percent?

Mr. MCENTEE. The camps are being reduced on this basis, sir: A little over a year ago it was contemplated to close a large number of camps very rapidly. The question was raised by large groups, and two entire committees of Congress, that we were walking off the job in a lot of places and leaving the work unfinished; that through the Soil Erosion Service we had entered into cooperative agreements with the counties and farmers' organizations that if they would do certain things we would do certain things; and then they raised the point that we were closing up these camps. The matter was taken up with the President and finally this solution was reached: That we keep all these camps in operation until the work project as then undertaken was completed. Now, while we are closing 20 percent of the camps, we are not getting rid of 20 percent of the enrollees. We are going to have camps of 200-man strength instead of camps of 167-man strength.

Mr. WiggLESWORTH. The total enrollees during the last year were what?

Mr. McENTEE. Three hundred and fifty thousand was the authorized number. That fluctuated by reason of men leaving to accept employment and for other causes.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. That is going to be cut to 300,000, roughly?

Mr. McENTEE. Three hundred thousand. We have also the question there of new camps to be built, which we had under discussion a short time ago. We have equipment and things of that nature which must be purchased.

DIRECTOR'S OFFICE

ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I notice in the green sheets you have given us one item that you have already referred to. That is the item for the Director's office. You are asking for an increase from $200,000 to $306,000, roughly?

Mr. McENTEE. Ỹes, sir.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is almost a 50-percent increase.
Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; it is pretty close to it.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the reason for that? I notice, for instance, that you are going to take on four more special investigators and four more administrative assistants, and various others.

Mr. McENTEE. The bill, sir, very clearly definitizes the responsibilities of the Director. He is called upon and made accountable for a great many things that in the past the agencies were accountable for; and, to restate what I said before

Mr. WiggleSWORTH. What are you going to do with four administrative assistants? You have already got two assistant directors and one assistant to the director.

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. And a special counsel, and various other assistants. What are these four administrative assistants going to do?

Mr. McENTEE. The lay-out and the actual work that they will perform will have to be worked out by the Director; and there may not

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