CONSTRUCTION OF NEW CAMPS

Mr. LUDLOW. Among the several items submitted, you have mentioned one of more than $3,000,000 for new camp construction. What is the purpose of this construction of new camps?

Mr. McENTEE. When a camp completes its work project, they move and build a new camp at another site. Sometimes it is possible to move the camp, and we do so instead of building another camp. Mr. LUDLOW. What was the basis on which you estimated the number of new camps?

Mr. McENTEE. The technical agencies make estimates as to the number of camp movements. This figure indicates there will be 140 new camps required.

Mr. MCMILLAN. You salvage a good deal of the material when you transfer a camp from one site to another?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; everything that is possible to salvage. Mr. WOODRUM. You cannot move the buildings.

Mr. McENTEE. All of the camps we will have in the future will be of the portable type so that we will be able to move them.

Mr. WOODRUM. You have some camps outside of those in which you propose to place 300,000 enrollees. In other words, you have some camps in the insular possessions.

Mr. MCENTEE. There are 5,000 territorials and there are 10,000 Indians who are not included in this number of 300,000. Those camps are operated somewhat differently from our regular camps. The Indians are supervised differently. The War Department does not supervise the Indian camps, which are in charge of the officials of the Indian reservations. They have mostly Indian personnel and Indian enrollees. Then we have camps in Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands.

Mr. TABER. Are the enrollees in those camps included in the 300,000 you have mentioned?

Mr. MCENTEE. No, sir.

Mr. TABER. How many do you have in Alaska?

Mr. McENTEE. Six hundred. There are 2,400 in Puerto Rico, 800 in Hawaii, and 400 enrollees in the Virgin Islands. That totals about 4,200.

Mr. WOODRUM. You have about $4,000,000 for construction of new camps?

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. How many transactions does that contemplate, or how many camps?

Mr. MCENTEE. About 140.

Mr. WOODRUM. Out of the 1,612?

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Does the law place a maximum amount for new buildings?

General TYNER. Yes. One building cannot cost more than $25,000. Mr. WOODRUM. Is that limit under the new language?

General TYNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. You do not have any buildings that cost that much, do you?

Mr. MCENTEE. There are about 19 buildings in these camps, and the entire construction cost for the construction of a camp is from $25,000 to $28,000.

General TYNER. For everything, the estimate is $28,000 for each of these 140 new camps.

AMOUNT REQUESTED OF BUDGET BUREAU

Mr. WOODRUM. Is $350,000,000 the amount you asked the Budget for?

Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir; $350,000,000.

Mr. WOODRUM. Then, they gave you what you asked.

Mr. McENTEE. That is not all that was asked. I do not know whether that should come in here, or not, but the estimates submitted by the various departments amounted to considerably more than that, but before the estimates went to the Budget, we set a limiting figure of $350,000,000 as the amount the departments could ask for.

Mr. WOODRUM. How does that compare with the actual expenditures for the current fiscal year?

Mr. McENTEE. It is a drop of $53,000,000. We had $403,000,000 last year, for the fiscal year 1937, but we operated more camps. Mr. WOODRUM. You had more camps and more enrollees. Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir.

PRESENT NUMBER AND SELECTION OF ADDITIONAL ENROLLEES

Mr. LUDLOW. What is the drop in the number of enrollees?
Mr. MCENTEE. Fifty thousand is the authorized number.
Mr. TABER. How many enrollees do you have now?

General TYNER. Two hundred and seventy-eight thousand three hundred and fifty-two, on June 10.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Do you expect to have 300,000 in the next fiscal year?

General TYNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Will you take them from the relief rolls?

General TYNER. No, sir; the Labor Department has charge of the selection. On the basis of the new law, which has just been signed, it means the unemployed and those in need of employment. Mr. WOODRUM. Is that regulation now in effect?

General TYNER. It will go into effect as to the enrollees we will have after July 1, if we get the appropriation.

Mr. TABER. The selection is by the Labor Department?

General TYNER. Yes, sir. The requirement is different for enroll

ment

Mr. TABER. You mean that it is more liberal under the new law? General TYNER. Yes, sir.

PER CAFITA TRAINING AND MAINTENANCE COST OF ENROLLEE

Mr. MCMILLAN. That figure of $350,000,000, estimated to take care of 300,000 enrollees, would be at the rate of $1,150 per man.

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir. $350,000,000 with maximum of 315,000 enrollees would be $1,111 per man.

Mr. BACON. What is the cost per man per year in the Army? Capt. BEAN. The average maintenance cost of a soldier is $681.08 compared to the average maintenance cost of an enrollee of 837.55.

Mr. MCENTEE. However, you must take into consideration the fact that this is the overall charge against the enrollee. It includes the Indians and the insular possessions' enrollees.

Mr. MCMILLAN. I am simply figuring the cost of operation in gross. Mr. LUDLOW. What would be the comparative figure for sending these boys to an educational institution with a similar curriculum?

Mr. MCENTEE. I imagine it would be about the same for a college, but relatively few C. C. C. boys could qualify for college, and, of course, there is a different question involved here. This corps was the first relief agency put into operation. There was no F. E. R. A., no W. P. A., or any other relief agency operating in the country at that time. Then our regulations were set up to take these boys. Mr. LUDLOW. With the depression at least measurably passing away, I am wondering whether there will be the same necessity.

Mr. McENTEE. Coming down to the work projects, I will submit to the committee, if I may, later, a general report on the work projects. As to your direct question as to what it would cost to put these boys in educational institutions, I would say it would cost about the same. Of course, there would be no immediate tangible work value in the work from the college student, if the money was expended just to give. him a direct education. After all, it is the question of getting down to the work projects.

Mr. LUDLOW. Would it be giving him about the same basic training? Mr. McENTEE. I doubt it. I believe that the college would give him an academic training. The C. C. C. training is almost entirely "practical," as contrasted with academic.

Mr. LUDLOW. You do not think there is a legitimate basis of comparison as between the two things.

Mr. MCENTEE. No, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Most of them are not college boys.

Mr. MCENTEE. No, sir; I doubt whether 10 percent of them could pass the examinations for entrance to college.

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS WORK UNDER JURISDICTION OF DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. TABER. You have a break-down covering about $220,000,000 out of the $268,000,000 that the War Department was going to get, and I am wondering where the rest of the money goes.

Mr. MCENTEE. I believe the entire $268,000,000 was itemized by projects. The Department of Agriculture and the Department of Interior require most of the $82,000,000 balance. These departments do almost identical work, and, if I may, I will give those allocations.

For the Department of Agriculture, of the allocation of $52,400,000, the basic division of the money will be as follows: To the Forest Service, operating 912 camps, $33,400,000; to the Soil Conservation Service, operating 375 camps, $13,200,000; to the Biological Survey, operating 33 camps, $2,000,000, or that is the amount they are asking; the Bureau of Agricultural Engineering is asking $1,600,000; and the Bureau of Animal Industry, operating 4 camps, is asking $162,000. Then, for the Alaska camps and Puerto Rican camps, which are under the Agricultural Department, they are asking $860,000 for Alaska and $1,140,000 for Puerto Rico. The break-down of all the money we are estimating is in the proposed budget furnished to the committee.

These sums total approximately $52,400,000 for the Department of Agriculture, and of that sum $28,000,000 will be spent for personal

services and a little over $5,000,000 for supplies and materials. Roughly, a similar sum will be used for alterations and for equipment. Mr. TABER. How much is estimated there for supplies and materials? Mr. McENTEE. $5,000,000, and about a similar sum for repairs, alterations, and, also, for equipment. Approximately $6,000,000 is asked for structures and parts and the construction of nonstructural improvements to lands. It might be well to note that these repairs we speak of here involve the repair and maintenance of some $35,000,000 worth of equipment, ranging from hand tools to heavy road machinery. There are about 25,000 automotive units in operation at these camps.

Mr. WOODRUM. Does this contemplate the purchase of new equipment and machinery?

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir; we have to buy some, because the machines are constantly wearing out.

Mr. WOODRUM. It is more or less routine replacement.
Mr. McENTEE. Yes, sir.

DISTRIBUTION OF ESTIMATE FOR 1938 AND EXPENDITURES FOR 1937

Mr. TABER. You are to furnish an itemized break-down of these estimates, and I want to know if you can give us the actual expenditures for each of the last 2 years covering each of the items to be included in your break-down.

Mr. McENTEE. I do not think we have that in just the way you want it. However, we can make it up and put it in the record. Mr. TABER. You can give those expenditures for the current fiscal year we are in.

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. TABER. And you can give it for the previous year.

Mr. MCENTEE. It appears on the green sheets for 1937. I do not have the break-down in the way I think you want it.

Mr. TABER. You have the break-down for the current fiscal year in the same way that you are to supply it for this year, or in the way you are asking for it now.

Mr. MCENTEE. The break-down does not go quite as far as I think you want it, or as I understand from your question it should be. However, all of that information can be prepared and furnished for the record. I understood your question to be whether we have a statement of the total expenses for all of these items which I have read off. I do not have the figures that close, but I can get it up for you. Mr. TABER. You can furnish it for the record.

Mr. McENTEE. We have a statement of the expenditures for this fiscal year, 1937, but as I understood your question, you asked for a more detailed break-down.

Mr. TABER. I asked for a statement that would be comparable to the itemized statement that you have submitted here, covering the break-down of the estimates, the comparable statement to cover this present fiscal year's expenditures and the expenditures for the year before.

Mr. McENTEE. I cannot give it for the year before, but I can give it for the current year.

Mr. WOODRUM. You may supply those comparative statements for the record.

Mr. LUDLOW. Does the change in the language of the law change the method of operation materially?

Mr. McENTEE. No, sir; the same cooperation will be used.

USE OF RESERVE OFFICERS AT CAMPS

Mr. WOODRUM. You will use Reserve officers in the camps.

Mr. MCENTEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Will they be the same group of people?

General TYNER. There will be some turn-over. Those in there now, if they desire to come back, will be brought back after those who have applied have been detailed.

Mr. WOODRUM. If they have served 4 years.

General TYNER. Irrespective of how long they have served. After they are relieved, they may apply for redetail and if they are acceptable to the corps area commander, they go on a waiting list. When they reach the top of the list, they are redetailed.

The CHAIRMAN. When are they releived?

General TYNER. When they have had more than 18 months' service. Of those, 25 percent may be retained for 2 years' service. The others will be relieved between now and June 30, 1938.

Mr. WOODRUM. How do you determine that?

General TYNER. The corps area commanders do that.

Mr. WOODRUM. That will be quite a big turn-over.

General TYNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. The corps area commander can select 25 percent to remain for the second year.

General TYNER. Yes, sir; in certain cases.

In the case of Medical Reserve officers and chaplains, they will not be relieved until we can obtain Reserve officers of that branch of the service to replace them. Mr. WOODRUM. Medical Reserve officers?

General TYNER. Yes, sir; and chaplains.

Mr. WOODRUM. You are not using Medical Reserve officers in all of the camps, are you?

General TYNER. Wherever we can get them; yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. You have a good many contract physicians?