details of the conference around the table, among the members, at that time, if there be anything of importance in any statements that were made there, Mr. Mangum, will have to give them to you.

I was present at the meeting last Wednesday in which matters were gone over again and certain actions taken.

May I say to you gentlemen that I think the Commission is going to have to ask you and ask the Congress to entrust something to their discretion in the matter of these expenditures. It is almost impossible, as I am sure each of you gentlemen can realize, to anticipate each item of expense that may have to be incurred on an occasion of this kind. Perhaps as I proceed you will see more clearly what I mean by that.

DISTRIBUTION OF ESTIMATE

The general break-up of this $200,000 estimate was made by the Commission, and it is as follows:

Physical installations at all ceremonies__.

$45, 000

Sound pictures of all ceremonies...

37, 000

Special trains, automobile hire, diplomatic entertainment, and other

customary obligations__--

25, 000

1,000 4, 500 2,000 20,000 500

40, 000 25, 000

Official delegation:

OFFICIAL DELEGATES

Secretary of State or alternate_

Members of American Battle Monuments Commission_.

Newton D. Baker....

Josephus Daniels...

Admiral Wilson (if able) or alternate..

American Legion

Disabled American Veterans

Veterans of Foreign Wars..

17

1

1

1

1

I think I shall comment first upon the official delegates from the United States, which is the $40,000 item. At the time the Commission suggested the $200,000 estimate it was not known what the desire of the President might be as to sending representatives, nor what the desire of Congress might be in the matter of sending official representatives. The Commission proceeded upon the theory that perhaps Congress would like the entire fund to be placed in one sum to cover all who might go at the invitation of the Commission; who might be appointed by the President; and who might be appointed by the Congress. But I wish to make it very clear that the Commission does not mean to suggest at all that the expenses of any congressional committee should be included in this fund. That would be a matter, the Commission recognizes, wholly for Congress to determine.

REPRESENTATIVES TO BE NAMED BY THE COMMISSION

Now, as to the appointments by the President, I had a conference with the President yesterday and he authorized me to say to the committee today that he had no appointments in mind and that he did not ask to be authorized to make any, with one exception, which I will explain.

The Commission limits itself to eight who it thinks should be invited, namely, the present Secretary of State or his alternate.

I will explain that by saying that the Commission has learned from the experience of other nations who have dedicated monuments there, that certain questions need to go through diplomatic channels. Hence it was deemed proper that the Secretary of State be invited, or some alternate.

Now, that appointment, the Commission thinks, should be made by the President and the President agrees.

The next is the Secretary of War during the World War, Hon. Newton Baker.

The Secretary of the Navy during the World War, Hon. Josephus Daniels, now Ambassador to Mexico.

The senior officer in command of the naval forces in Europe during the war.

Of course, General Pershing himself will be there, representing the Army, as the senior officer.

The heads of the following organizations, which have been incorporated by Congress: The American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Disabled American Veterans, and the American War Mothers.

The Commission has confined itself to those organizations that have been incorporated by Congress. There are some other organizations, but as I say, it confined itself to those that have been incorporated by Congress for what we conceive to be very good reasons and which I imagine are obvious to you gentlemen.

It is also the thought of the Commission that chaplains should go, but should this occur the expense incident to their going will be paid from the administrative fund, and not from the official delegate fund.

American Battle Monuments Commission: General Pershing, chairman; Robert G. Woodside, Pittsburgh; Hon. David A. Reed, Pittsburgh; Hon. John Philip Hill, Baltimore; Hon. Finis J. Garrett, Washington, D. C.; Col. D. John Markey, Frederick, Md.; Mrs. Cora W. Baker, Baltimore, Md.

The estimate which we made was $1,000 for each member of the Commission, and this will be paid from the administrative fund. Mr. WOODRUM. How many members of the Commission are there? Mr. GARRETT. Seven. That is the estimate. It is suggested that there should be authority to modify that. That account is to include everything, travel expenses, subsistence, everything. You see, Congress is being asked to appropriate this money without the ordinary limitation of $6 a day, or whatever that limitation is. On an occasion of this sort it would be rather difficult to get along on that amount in France.

Mr. WOODRUM. That would make $8,000, approximately, for the expenses of your guests?

Mr. GARRETT. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is exclusive of any congressional delegation? Mr. GARRETT. That is exclusive of any congressional delegation. Mr. WOODRUM. Is there any reason why there should be any congressional delegation at this ceremony?

Mr. GARRETT. Mr. Chairman, that is a matter concerning which the Commission feels a very great delicacy in speaking. The Commission feels Congress should have exclusive charge of that.

Mr. WOODRUM. I would like to put on record my own personal views which are that I do not see any reason why there should be any congressional delegation at this ceremony.

Mr. SNYDER. I do not, either.

Mr. LUDLOW. If we have set up a special personnel to perform this function, why should there be any congressional delegation there? Mr. WOODRUM. I do not see any reason why there should; not because they are Members of Congress, but I do not think they should be present merely because they are Members of the House or the Senate.

Mr. GARRETT. It would be upon this theory, I suppose, Mr. Chairman; that Congress is a coordinate branch of the Government and is the war-declaring body. I think the Canadian Parliament was represented. Members of the Canadian Parliament were present upon the occasion of the Canadian dedication ceremonies. But that is a matter concerning which the Commission does not wish to make any suggestions.

Mr. WOODRUM. If Congress wants to send a delegation, it can provide the money to take care of it.

Mr. GARRETT. In whatever manner it chooses.

Mr. WOODRUM. Is there anything included in this $200,000 estimate for a congressional delegation?

Mr. GARRETT. That would include it.

Mr. TABER. It does include it.

Mr. WOODRUM. Your delegates, including distinguished guests, and including members of the Commission and chaplains, would number So far as the Commission is concerned, that will be the delegation; and the estimated cost would be $18,000?

18.

Mr. GARRETT. On the basis of $1,000 apiece.

Mr. WOODRUM. And if Congress does not care to send any delegates, there can be deducted $22,000; or if it decides to send a smaller delegation than 22, a corresponding amount?

Mr. MANGUM. Mr. Chairman, the travel of the members of the Commission is included in the break-down of administrative travel, so that the number who would travel under this item of $40,000 would be only the delegation of eight.

Mr. WOODRUM. That would make $8,000 instead of $18,000.

Mr. GARRETT. Only $8,000 would be included instead of $40,000, and the Commission would be included in the $20,000 item. The chaplain would also come out of the $20,000 administrative item.

Mr. LUDLOW. This is rather a solemn and sacred occasion. Would it not be rather unfortunate if it should take on the nature of what the country would regard as a congressional junket? I do not mean to ask for an answer to that question, but it seems to me it might have an unfortunate aspect, aside from the expense involved, if that line were followed.

Mr. GARRETT. As I said, Mr. Congressman, the Commission does not feel-and I believe you will agree with me-that it ought to make any suggestion on that point.

Mr. LUDLOW. That is a matter for Congress to determine?

Mr. GARRETT. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. Have you anything else to suggest?

Mr. GARRETT. These other items are the physical installations, and matters of that sort, which I think Mr. Mangum can tell you about in greater detail than I.

ALLOWANCE FOR TRAVEL AND SUBSISTENCE

Mr. MCMILLAN. May I ask if this $1,000 estimate for each of the delegates will be paid to those delegates in a lump sum without regard to the provision of law regarding travel allowances in other cases? Mr. LUDLOW. You mean the per diem?

Mr. MCMILLAN. The per diem basis; yes.

Mr. GARRETT. That is what is hoped for. You see, that per diem is $6, I think. It is pretty difficult to get by on that amount in France. That amount, I think, was fixed originally on the basis of travel and so forth here in the United States. Just how the fund will be administered, if granted in the way requested, I do not know, but the Commission is not asking that there be any prevention of an audit.

Mr. MCMILLAN. I may say, judge, that it is going to take affirmative action by Congress to authorize the payment in a lump sum such as you indicate, because otherwise the Comptroller General is going to throw out any vouchers submitted on that basis.

Mr. GARRETT. The Budget letter covers that, I think.

Mr. WOODRUM. The language is here.

Mr. MCMILLAN. You have got to have the language in the bill to provide for that.

Mr. GARRETT. Yes, sir.

SOUND PICTURES OF THE DEDICATION CEREMONIES

Mr. WOODRUM. Will you tell us about the cost of these sound pictures, estimated at $37,000, Mr. Mangum? What is your thought on that?

Mr. MANGUM. In fixing the estimate for that, we simply followed the experience of the Canadian government when they dedicated their one monument at Vimy Ridge. They had one dedication and the cost of the sound pictures was $10,000. We have set up that amount for the dedication at Montfaucon ; a similar amount for the ceremonies at Chateau Thierry, plus $2,000 for each of the others, making $37,000. Mr. TABER. Over what period of time will these dedication ceremonies be spread?

Mr. MANGUM. The first would be on August 1, at Montfaucon, and the others would come within a period of 2 weeks, except Chateau Thierry, which would be held in the early part of October.

Mr. LUDLOW. What use is to be made of these sound pictures?
Mr. MANGUM. For the veterans' organizations.

Mr. LUDLOW. Would not the private moving-picture companies make these sound pictures without any charge to the Government? Mr. MANGUM. We will investigate that and will have the work done in the most inexpensive way possible. But ordinarily the news

reel people only take the views which are of value for selling to the moving-picture houses, and would not include a great many things. Mr. LUDLOW. What you want is an historical picture of the whole thing?

Mr. MANGUM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LUDLOw. Not isolated shots?

Mr. MANGUM. That is correct.

Mr. TABER. What is the reason for spreading these exercises over a period of about 6 weeks?

Mr. MANGUM. Except for the ceremonies at Chateau Thierry, the dedication covers only 2 weeks, and there are several reasons why the period is required. First, there is the physical location of the monuments. This chart [exhibiting] shows where the memorials are located in France, Belgium, and England. In certain cases it takes as much as a day or more to travel from one memorial to another.

Mr. LUDLOW. How many of these memorials are there altogether? Mr. MANGUM. Altogether there are eight cemeteries with a chapel in each, and 11 monuments at places outside.

DATES OF THE CEREMONIES

Mr. WOODRUM. Have you a list of the dates of these dedication ceremonies?

Mr. MANGUM. Yes; I have it.

Mr. WOODRUM. Will you put it in the record?

Mr. MANGUM. Yes, sir.

August 1, Sunday, Montfaucon.
August 2, Monday, Montsec.

August 3, Tuesday, Sommepy.

August 5, Thursday, Tours.

August 8 (a. m.), Sunday, chapel, Flanders Field Cemetery.

August 8 (p. m.), Sunday, Audenarde.

August 8 (p. m.), Sunday, Vierstraat.

August 9 (a. m.), Monday, Bellicourt.

August 9 (p. m.), Monday, Cantigny.

August 12, Thursday, Brest.

August 15, Sunday, chapel, Brookwood Cemetery.

October, date to be fixed, Chateau-Thierry.

Mr. LUDLOW. Will there be a standard form of ceremony at all of these various places?

Mr. MANGUM. The ceremony at Montfaucon will be the principal one and will of course be more extensive than the others. General Pershing is now in Europe and the details of the respective dedications are being worked out over there. Local customs may affect the type of ceremony in certain places.

Mr. WOODRUM. Mr. Magnum, do you have to pay for the broadcasting?

Mr. MAGNUM. No, sir. The broadcasting companies will arrange that free of charge.

Mr. WOODRUM. With reference to the unexpended balance of $20,000 appropriated some years ago for dedication purposes, will you furnish a statement for the record showing how much of it has been used and for what purposes?

Mr. MANGUM. About $5,000 of that has been spent, most of it for services in the cemeteries in France on Memorial Day of this year, and the remainder for preliminary work necessary in connection with the dedication to be held in August.