Q. If you don't pay $6 or $8 you don't get them; that is the value ?—A. That is totally arbitrary.

Q. Suppose I tell the man it was arbitrary to charge me $6, and that I would only give him $3, would he give them?-A. No.

Q. That don't fix the price of boots?-A. No; but it ought.

Q. By what law?-A. The law of justice.

Q. The natural law is supposed to be the law of justice?-A. There is no such thing.

Q. There is no justice?-A. No, sir.

Q. Well, now you are opening my eyes; I thought there was some justice.-A. That is it, there is so much injustice I can't see where the justice comes in. What is justice? Now, the whole question rests right in that very little word, what is justice. Well, any man can demonstrate it.

Q. That is not a question before this committee, the definition of justice?—A. No, sir; but it is a question I am perfectly interested in.

Q. But this committee is to find out certain causes of business depression. If you will give us some practical suggestion by which we can relieve the present distress, we will be obliged to you. By going into these abstract questions you are excluding others, and I must ask you to cut it short.-A. My object in stating the natural laws was simply to show we must obey them, and the laws of our government must be in harmony with natural law.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. HANSON. Then we ought to repeal all the laws on the land question. Then enact that every citizen of the United States shall have a spot of land for a home.

Q. Do you not know that any citizen of the United States may go and enter 160 acres for settling on it?-A. Of course I do; but within a radius of ten or twelve miles of the Battery Park there is plenty of land owned by monopolists, and I don't want to go away.

Q. And you want a spot of land in New York or Brooklyn?-A. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The government can't do that. The lands in New York and Brooklyn belong to the State of New York. We have got all the public lands, on the contrary, open to settlers, as you propose.-A. They are not as I propose.

Q. Well, we have done as other people like you propose; you are in the minority.— A. Well, that does not help the case; I am presenting to you the facts as they are, and showing you the state of myself and family.

Q. Yes, but your remedy Congress has no power to employ.-A. I beg your pardon. Q. How can Congress authorize you to enter upon a vacant lot in New York or Brooklyn? The Government of the United States can't do it.-A. The Government of the United States can repeal all laws.

Q. Can the Government of the United States repeal all land laws of the State of New York?-A. No, sir.

Q. Then why present that to this committee?-A. Well, I was only giving you the cause of this distress.

Q. But that cause of this distress is one that members of Congress are powerless to affect. Give me something practical to go to my fellow-members of Congress with. If I go and ask them to do something forbidden by the Constitution, they will laugh at me.-A. Well, I will give you one thing: you can ordain that we shall have money without interest.

Q. How A. Let it be a paper money; upon the face of that money stamp one dollar; make it a dollar absolutely, two dollars, five dollars, any multiple of one; then let the financial currency be any fraction of that unit; then let it be issued to the people over government counters, at the simple cost of service, on ample security, and then let that money be returned over the government counters at the expiration of the time for which it was borrowed. The consequence will be, since rents are as the interest, the rents will tumble down very nearly to the price of money, necessarily, logically. That is what you can do; that is one suggestion; you can help the workingman in that way, by casting down the rents.

Q. Only by the issue of this paper money?-A. By the issue of that paper money, on ample security, as the merchant by his notes.

Q. What would be the security?-A. Anything that is proved to be good security, Q. Proved by whom?-A. By the agent of the people who loans the money to the people.

Q. Suppose the agent was a government officer; suppose there should be a man in charge who is dishonest ?-A. Then hang him.

Q. Yes; that is what we would like to do.

that he has swindled.

The CHAIRMAN. We can't do it now.

Who will convict him?-A. The people

Mr. HANSON. Simply because we have not justice.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the great complaint in the city of New York, that for years we have had officials that don't do their duty.

Mr. HANSON. Then we will have to refer it by and by to mob law, as they did in California years ago.

Q. Mob law is a good remedy you think?-A. Mob law is a good remedy when you can't reach them by civil law.

Q. What other remedy is there ?-A. I want to show you that by the profit system I am robbed of fifty per cent. of my wages by the profits; that is to say, a part of my wages are taken from me every year, for which I receive no corresponding equivalent whatever in any kind of work. That is why I am poor; that is what is the matter with the workingmen. Every merchant that trades with a merchant makes profits, because increase bears increase, but it is not so with the workingman; even if he buy lager beer he is victimized 150 per cent. The trouble lies in this, that if I get as much work for my wages as I have given for my wages I would never be victimized. The hodcarrier that carries the hod for $2 a day, if he got as much work for that $2 as he gave would not be victimized, but the truth is I am compelled to give to my landlord sixty days' work for which I get nothing, and I give more than twice sixty days a year for which I get nothing.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. That may be the case, but, as I have explained to you, the Congress of the United States is powerless to remedy this.

Mr. HANSON. I have given you one remedy.

Q. That is to issue paper at security-A. Yes; let the security be actual labor profits of some kind; you may let it be bullion, if you like, or it may be a company of men for co-operative purposes; take the bond of that association for the money they use to carry on their business, and then loan it; let them have it without the interest; the interest is the damning curse of this age, and we must get rid of it; and I, as a member of the labor party, will never stop until we do.

Q. That is, the interest must be abolished?-A. The interest must be abolished absolutely and forever in the United States.

Q. You say no man is to receive interest on the money he lends?-A. Not unless he gives an equivalent in labor for it.

Q. I understand the interest is to be abolished?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the last suggestion?-A. Well, I don't wish to occupy more time; I have given you one good suggestion.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we have had two, I understand.

HENRY SCHRAEDER, the next person who appeared before the committee, was questioned as follows:

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. I must confine witnesses from this time out, for the rest of the session, to the exact points of the investigation. Now, first, what is your business?-Auswer. My business is that of a piano-maker.

Q. Piano-maker; employer or employé ?—A. I used to be in the piano business; I am now a teacher.

Q. Are you prepared to state what you believe to be the causes of the present distress?-A. I think so, sir; I have given this considerable thought.

Q. Be good enough to state the causes simply.-A. The first gentleman I heard this morning I heard compliment Congress for sending this committee here, and I was of the same opinion, though I wonder at your patience; I hope I will not try your patience. In reference to the causes of the depression and state of affairs, I consider it to be such as have been mentioned this day, and after a gigantic war as we had, it expending so much money, and all money mostly loaned, we could not expect at the end of it that anything else would follow but depression; a million of soldiers almost out of employment were thrown upon the market of labor, and then all the industries which were then engaged helping to carry on the war also ceased. This produced a large amount of superfluous labor. I know this will not remedy the matter, but to come back to the cause of it: If Congress at that time had passed laws by which men could have been employed, that would have prevented to some extent this depression. Q. We had all that stated by the witnesses yesterday, and it was found out that during the year 1872 and before that they all had employment, and that was corrected; no matter how it was done.-A. I know we had here an account of the wages of the stone-masons which showed principally what I wanted, but we had a conflict with capital and labor which was the cause of the depression somewhat. I come now to how to remedy it. I believe if we had postponed paying our national debt, as we have to pay the interest and the principal, I think if we had postponed it twenty years or more, and tried to develop the industries of the nation, then we would not have had this depression. I believe this reduction, which came from the fact of the existence of unemployed capital, was ruinous to real-estate owners; and, of course, they have suffered, and are now poor, as poor as the laborer. I consider the laborer and the capitalist are as poor as they well can be. My remedy would be this: it is necessary to have an immediate remedy, not a remedy that would be necessary to change our government and abolish Congress almost. I just confine myself to what

would give an immediate remedy, because while we are here men starve, and for that reason we want an immediate remedy, and for that reason I have some points to give. First, to establish a central labor bureau at Washington, which would have connecting branches in all such cities and places where required. Second, these branches could be conducted and superintended by gentlemen from our Christian churches. Third, these branches to go to work at once and find out who wanted employment, to classify the same as to occupation, age, sex, nationality, &c. As this is a humanitarian matter, I think plenty of gentlemen could be found to do it quickly enough. I think we must look upon our people as one family, and our government as a paternal government; and it would not be proper for a man while he has a family suffering to wait to see what he is to do. I claim that Congress should not be praised too highly for sending this committee, but still we are thankful for it.

Then the relief. I would suggest that those who can, be employed in the cities on public works or improvements. Then there should be industrial homes established for such as can't do heavy work and have no trade. Then I propose settlements for such as could be removed. Famliies and single persons who may not be employed in the cities, to form them into colonies and let them be placed in the West or South, where States hold out certain inducements, to be provided with agricultural implements, &c., like we do with the Indians. Their farms or other property would be a security to refund the government the money expended, say in ten annual installments. These colonies would, with care and judgment, become the means of establishing future towns, and would be beneficial for all.

Q. Do you know there are bills pending in Congress to do what you say?—A. Well?

Q. There are bills pending there.-A. Well, I have come to give my opinion. We must look to our government in the future more to be a paternal one, to harmonize the conflicting interests between capital and labor, which seems now to be the trouble all over the civilized world.

I propose, 1st. That a burean at Washington, with the advice of delegates from trades-unions and employers, should establish fixed wages for all trades for one year or more, which could not be changed. 2d. That the time of labor should be lessened to eight hours, to give the working classes an opportunity for intellectual improvement, and provide institutions for this purpose. We will have to do something in this direction to elevate the standard of the people if we wish our free government to continue. We must have a social, political, and religious reformation, the Bible to be our text-book, and God in Christ Jesus our teacher. 3d. It is necessary that no children should be allowed to be employed under fourteen years of age. The central labor bureau at Washington to be informed by the branches of all superfluence or scarcity of laborers, and direct the same accordingly. A general supervision should be established, and all disputes settled through the bureau at Washington.

I have to propose certain reforms: First, that all our bonds should be recalled, and greenbacks issued in their stead, or the bonds only be held in this country. Second, to produce all we can in our own land, and import as little as possible. As long as there is such diversity in point of social condition among nations we must have a protective tariff to do this. Third, we must see that we own our own ships and do our own carrying. Fourth, then the proper education of the people being paramount to their happiness, nothing should be left undone to keep our children and youth constantly learning; therefore all our children should go to school and continue up to the twentieth year, even after that time. Men should have constant inducements and opportunities for to obtain knowledge, for to cease learning is to die spiritually.

I also wish to state here that we have had considerable to-day about the natural law; the gentleman previous to me stated about it; but there is one natural law, and that I believe is morality as we have it in the Bible; and that I recommend to be used by every one. It is not a great deal that is necessary; we must leave this matter considerably to itself, to rectify itself by such laws as we have seen operate since the world began, but I think we must do something in directing them, and directing them properly. I also wish to state, in regard to a question asked by one of the gentlemen, and that is in regard to the machines, in respect to the eight-hour law. pect to legislate for machines, we legislate for men; and therefore where machines are used all the time we would have a new gang of men to put on; if the eight-hour law were passed, we would have another gang of men to take the other's place.

The CHAIRMAN. That was stated.

We don't ex

Mr. SCHRAEDER. Yes, sir. I have to make here a remark, if you will allow me, as to the remarks made about working on vests.

Q. Are you a tailor?-A. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, then, I must decline to let you go into that, or give your opinions about tailors' business.

Mr. SCHRAEDER. Well, excuse me, sir; I carried on an industrial school last year. The CHAIRMAN. Well, practical things we want, but it is idle to go into other people's

business.

WILLIAM WITTICK was the next person to appear before the committee, and was questioned as follows:

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. What is your business?-Answer. I am connected with a publishinghouse in this city.

Q. Are you a delegate from any body?-A. I am not, sir.

Q. You come to give your individual opinion?-A. I do, sir.

Q. Have you got any opinion on any point that has not been presented to-day?—A. I think I have, sir.

Q. Will you confine yourself to something new?-A. I will promise to occupy not more than seven minutes of your time.

First. We have enormous facilities for production, and only a limited outlet for distribution. The introduction of self-acting machinery has been the prime cause of increased power of production, and the same agency is constantly contracting the field for distribution by lessening the demand for labor, which, under the law of supply and demand, constantly depreciates in value. Take, for instance, the manufacture of hair-cloth. The hand-loom, which was formerly used, required two operatives to tend it. The power-loom now used needs only one woman to ten looms. The invention of the power-loom, therefore, throws out of employ nineteen out of every twenty operatives. In our iron-founderies, machine-shops, mills, factories, and in every branch of industry, the same influences have been at work in a greater or less degree, One deplorable result has been the substitution of female labor for male labor in occupations that, with my estimate of woman, I consider demoralizing to her and to the community at large, and a disgrace to mankind. Thus machinery, which should be a blessing, is actually a curse to laber. Now, what is the remedy? I assert, partially, legislative action, and, partially, co-operation of the working classes. They must organize in their respective vocations, shorten hours of labor proportionately with increased powers of production, and demand (what they never yet have had), a fair share of the fruits of their handiwork. Labor must no longer "build houses for others to inhabit them, and plant vineyards for others to eat the fruit thereof." And if capital endeavors to run in cheap labor from China, or any other place, workingmen must by the ballot control the government and prohibit such action. We must not let labor

be degraded to the European level, much less to that of the heathen Chinee. The relations of labor and capital to-day inevitably tend to such a degradation, and the ultimate will be, unless checked now, the Mongolian will drive out the Caucasian, or reduce him to his miserable level. (I refer to an article in the North American Review, I think it was the issue before the last, which will indorse what I state.) The mission of the American workingman is to lift up his brothers all over the world to h's high estate, and not to descend to their low and servile condition.

Second. The depression of labor has been caused also by the blundering financial policy of the government. During the late war the needs of the country called for foreign and domestic loans; when the banks had run dry, and foreign capital was scared, the government issued its legal-tenders-greenback-and by doing so kept its Army in the field and won the day. This money was taken by our merchants, manufacturers, soldiers, sailors, and everybody who could get it, and used by them as a medium of exchange, a representative of value the same as the best money that ever was coined. It entered into the business of the country and appreciated values to a greenback standard. Now, when a man has put his money in real estate, in stock in trade, &c., he cannot reconvert these collaterals at a moment's notice; at the best he can only borrow on them. As we know, at certain seasons of the year the money of the country flows to New York to be called for again when needed to move the crops and pay for the season's merchandise. The banks were false to the country, and used the money of the merchant and farmer to buy interest-bearing gold bonds. The merchant came East, bought large bills of merchandise, as usual, gave his sixty-day and four months' notes, and went home expecting a good fall trade. This was in 1873. When his notes fell due he applied to the country banks for money. They had none. New York banks had none to spare either, and, with ample collateral, the merchant was helpless. He renewed his notes, for which he was charged heavy interest (seven per cent. per annum), to find, in many instances, that when they again matured he was unable to remit. Meanwhile his real estate and other collaterals melted before his eyes, and the end was bankruptcy. This individual instance represents thousands of cases which, in the aggregate, reacted upon and depressed labor.

The remedies for the depression I would suggest are these: Realizing that the damage done by the ruinous contraction of the currency is irreparable, any unsettlement of the volume of currency now would be injurious either to the debtor or creditor classes. We have emptied our quart into the pint measure, and met with a loss by so doing. Now, let us ease the burden of taxation by decreasing our bonded indebtedness as fast as possible, and by honesty in national, State, and municipal affairs, demonetize gold and silver for domestic purposes, using paper money instead, and so free ourselves from the owners of the gold of the world. Prosecute internal improve

ments on a grand scale, thereby giving employment to labor at remunerative wages, and widening the field for the distribution of our products. By so doing we shall soon see our mills, factories, and workshops in full activity, and we shall start on another spell of apparent prosperity-apparent for the reasons I will now state.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had all this over and over again. You have got it all written out. If you file it with the committee it will be considered with the other documents. What is the object of a man standing up here simply for glorification to the crowd

Mr. WITTICK. I think you are unjust.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry if I am unjust; then I will take it back-that part I will take back; but really I am tired, and what is the use of going on with things we have heard so often?

Mr. Wittick then handed to the stenographer the remainder of his paper, which is as follows:

"My remarks so far apply to the condition of things as they actually exist; but now I will say, thirdly and lastly, that our entire system of political economy is wrong. Under it panics, at certain intervals, are inevitable; as is also the creation of a tyrannical money power to the degradation of labor. Labor creates capital, and capital taxes labor for its support. A man starts in business, and by his own and other men's labor accumulates wealth, with which he increases his stock, adds to his business capital, and, maybe, builds a marble store. On this stock, this capital, this building, he claims interest year by year from the very creators of his wealth. This system, in the aggregate, piles a burden on the back of labor, which soon becomes too heavy to be borne, and then comes the inevitable panic. England taxes the whole world to pay interest on its capital, and even now labor groans under the burden. Witness the constantly recurring strikes and labor troubles in that country. Interest in any form is usury, and usury is a crime.

"Now for the remedy: I claim there is one, and one only; that is a communistic, socialistic, co-operative system of doing business, under which all would work for the good of all, and not, as now, in antagonism to each other. Then the cry of overproduction would not be heard until all were clothed, fed, and housed; then the corn in the West would not be left to rot while loaves were needed by the hungry; then we should ship coal from the mines so long as there was a shivering human being needing warmth; then the merchant would not fear bankruptcy in his old age, after a life of industry; and, generally, the constitutional permit for the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness would be no longer a mockery to honest labor. And, visionary as I may be deemed, I believe the time will come when this system will be inaugurated by the civilized world."

GEORGE WINTER next appeared before the committee, and was questioned as follows:

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. What is your occupation?-Answer. I am a cigar-maker.

Q. Are you a delegate from any association?-A. Yes, sir; the German Workingmen's Association of Williamsburg.

Q. A different association from the one that has already been before the committee?-A. Some of the members of this society have already been before the committee, but I will be very brief.

Q. Are you a member of the same association who have already sent their president here and who has made their statement?-A. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we can't recognize anybody but the president. He has been here and had full time; they sent us a delegate, Mr. Strausser, who made his statement, and took an hour; then why should we go on with the same matter which has been gone over?

Mr. WINTER. I will bring something new, and will not say anything that has been said.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I will have to stop you if you do. That association has been heard, and there are others waiting, and it is not just.

ALEXANDER JONAS. Allow me to explain: Mr. Winter, on account of his deficiency of the English language, is not fully aware of everything you have asked him, and he is not a representative of the same body that Mr. Strausser was the other day. The CHAIRMAN. He said he was.

Mr. WINTER. I will be exceedingly brief, because I only come here in order to state my full concurrence with all that was said, or nearly all that was said, by Mr. Douai the other day, and by Mr. McNeal this morning. We concur in their views with the causes of the present distress; and, without dwelling on the causes, we recommend to you as the chief object of the workingmen the eight-hour law, and the establishment of a statistical bureau, and the prohibition of children under fourteen years of age from working. All other plans we leave to the future. We know if you give that to the workinginen, they will fight their way through anyhow. I only differ with Mr.