[ass., or even from Peiping, China, to come down to North Carolina nd determine who is going to be allowed to vote down there.

Mr. MACY. That last location you cited would surely be excluded. Senator ERVIN. Where is it excluded?

Senator DIRKSEN. Perhaps I should be heard. The trouble is they ill not be able to talk our language.

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to point to the provision in this bill at excludes it.

Senator ERVIN. The people in North Carolina would not have to how our language, because they would not be required to read and rite, or even to speak English.

Senator HART. These individuals would have to be citizens to be pointed. Obviously, we would not look outside the community uns this was viewed to be an absolute necessity.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would they have to be citizens? Where is the ovision of the bill which would require you to appoint citizens? Mr. MACY. These would be employees of the United States and ould, therefore, have to be citizens in order to serve in this capacity. Senator ERVIN. Where is there anything in this bill to that effect? Senator DIRKSEN. Well, it does not have to be.

Mr. MACY. These are appointments made to Federal service and ould therefore be limited to citizens.

Senator ERVIN. Mr. Macy, do you not know we are employing thounds of people in the United States and thousands of people over e world who are not U.S. citizens?

Mr. MACY. Certainly I know we are employing people abroad unspecial legislation that permits us to employ aliens. However, here the United States, it is only where special authority is given under tain special conditions to appoint noncitizens.

Senator ERVIN. There is not a single restriction in this bill that a in to be an examiner must be a citizen or that he resides in the ited States. There is not even a requirement that he even be able read and write.

Mr. MACY. No; but certainly the Civil Service Commission would certify anybody to this position without meeting the qualifications it I referred to.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the trouble with you fellows. You come wn here and demand, ask for a wide grant of power and then say, ou give it to us, we shall not exercise all that power.

I want you to answer this question: The Communist Party in my te is in business in a big way. It is in business in the name of Freedom Party. Every little town has a Freedom House, which ■ Communist indoctrination center and that is all it is. I want know if you are going to appoint people who are affiliated with a mmunist organization?

Mr. MACY. No, Mr. Chairman; the Commission would abide by sting standards which preclude Federal employment to those who not loyal to the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. The people do not actually belong to the CommuParty but the people who are running the Freedom Party are nmunists. They are brought in there, they run it, they take antage of people. People are affiliated with them. A lot of them not members of the Communist Party, but they are influenced

by the Communist Party. I want you to answer me whether you are going to appoint people who belong to the Freedom Party in my State? Mr. MACY. There will be no political test applied in making this selection or these selections.

The CHAIRMAN. What you are saying is that you would appoint people in my State that are under Communist domination.

Mr. MACY. I am saying we would appoint qualified American citizens to perform this function.

The CHAIRMAN. Even though they are members of an organization that is Communist controlled.

Mr. MACY. I am not in a position, Mr. Chairman, to identify just what control any particular group of American citizens may be under. Certainly the Commission would follow the law and Executive order with respect to assuring that those who serve their Government are loyal to their Government and that they met the standards of suitability that are applied in Federal employment.

Senator DIRKSEN. May I interject?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator DIRKSEN. Mr. Macy, how long have you worked in the Civil Service Commission and personnel field for the Government?

Mr. MACY. Senator Dirksen, I have been employed by the Federal Government largely in personnel work since 1939, with the exception of military service for 311⁄2 years, and 3 years in academic life; so about 20 years.

Senator DIRKSEN. Or more?

Mr. MACY. Yes.

Senator DIRKSEN. And you have done a great deal of personnel work for the President of the United States?

Mr. MACY. Yes, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. And you have never had any difficulty in all that time, whatever the status of the law may be, in finding people who are citizens, who are loyal, and who are expected to and who do discharge their responsibilities adequately?

Mr. MACY. That is correct.

Senator DIRKSEN. And I may add that some of the discussion is mute, I think, because I made the point when this bill was in the drafting stage that first of all, I thought the examiners ought to come from the area and from the State where they are expected to operate and interestingly enough, when I made that observation on the floor of the Senate, one of our very liberal Members stood up to say if you put that in the bill, if you put those restrictions in the bill, I shall fuss and fight against it. I thought that was a peculiar liberal doctrine, to say the least.

But I had the same feeling that Judge Ervin did. I did not want anybody to say that we were setting up a carpetbag constabulary of some kind here to invade States that were far afield for the performance of the duties as examiners.

Mr. MACY. Certainly, Senator Dirksen, in administering this responsibility, if the Congress extends it to the Civil Service Commission. it would be our effort to find individuals in the locality to serve in the roll of examiner.

Senator DIRKSEN. Now, let us assume that in a given area, you could

emperament or capacity or who might be under some fear about ecepting an appointment of this kind. What would you do, or if you ould not find somebody in a given State, and I think that is going ather far afield, but if you could not find him, you would have to have ome language in the bill to give you some flexibility in order to meet le best standards, is that right?

Mr. MACY. That is it exactly and we would look to our own staff and ther responsible Federal people in immediately adjoining areas to erve in this capacity.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Macy, you say you think 100 people would be n adequate number of examiners?

Mr. MACY. That is my preliminary tentative estimate, yes, sir.

Senator ERVIN. Do you not think that Congress, in passing a bill, ight at least to assume that there are sufficient men in North Carolina integrity and character and intelligence to serve in this capacity. Mr. MACY. AS Senator Dirksen indicated, I think it is desirable to ave the added flexibility to permit, in instances where it is not posble to find qualified persons and willing persons in a community to ake it possible to go to other areas for them.

Senator ERVIN. Well, then, do you have any reason to believe you ould have to go outside of North Carolina to find men of sufficient telligence and integrity to act as examiners in North Carolina? Mr. MACY. I am not aware of all the details of conditions in North arolina, but I would certainly hope that it would not be necessary to outside the State.

Senator ERVIN. Do you not have anything more than a hope that you ght find a sufficient number of examiners out of 4.5 million people? Mr. MACY. My hope would be that it will not be necessary to have

aminers.

Senator ERVIN. It is not necessary. That is why I am against the

Mr. MACY. That is why I am hoping that the compliance will be such at it will not be necessary.

Senator ERVIN. Mr. Macy, are you telling me that you are not willing take it for granted, to get beyond the mere stages of inchoate hope, at there are enough people of integrity and character and intelligence North Carolina to act as examiners in North Carolina counties? Mr. MACY. I certainly would not want to answer that in any way to lect adversely on the intelligence or integrity of the people of North rolina. I am sure that there are many people who would meet the ndards I have specified.

Senator ERVIN. Well, I think the bill ought to be amended to proDit carpetbagger examiners, myself.

Mr. MACY. If that is the judgment of the Senate and the House, we all certainly act accordingly.

Senator ERVIN. I want to make one more observation and then I ve to leave to catch a plane. But you say, that as the Attorney Genl has testified, the Commission was named because of its long-estabed reputation as a nonpolitical, bipartisan body. The Commission is far has not been concerned with administering election laws, Bit?

Mr. MACY. That is correct.

Senator ERVIN. I hope the Commission still has that reputationthe Commission's reputation is excellent at the present moment. I hope you still have it when you get through with this. I want to tell you what this bill is and the kind of reputation it gives peoples in States.

Edmund Burke says you cannot indict a whole people, yet this bill indicts a whole people. It says that North Carolina, because it voted 51.8 percent of its adult population while New York County was voting only 51.3 percent of its adult population and Texas was voting only 44.4 percent of its population, is virtually presumed to be violating the 15th amendment, whereas New York County and Texas are to be presumed innocent of such nefarious conduct. I hope they will judge the Commission on a fairer basis than that and that the Commission's reputation will not be impugned upon such evidence as North Carolina's is by this bill.

Mr. MACY. It certainly is our intent to maintain our reputation for objectivity and fairness in administering this difficult program, as we have in administering the merit system for the Federal Government. Senator ERVIN (presiding). That is all.

Senator HART. Mr. Macy, is it your understanding under the bill that one currently employed by the Federal Government could be given this examiner assignment? In other words, is there any bar to holding a second job if the second job in the Federal Government is created by the voting rights bill?

Mr. MACY. No, sir, there would be no bar. It is our view that the examiner function will be largely short term and part time and that this would mean that it would be possible in certain instances to utilize Federal employees, either on a leave status or as an additional duty, to perform this particular function. It would be our intent to look first to the Federal employees in these communities to see if there are those who meet these qualifications and who have a willingness to perform in this function. We feel that this would be desirable. We feel that in these communities, the Federal official has a reputation for integrity and public interest and that such individuals would co stitute a resource that could be used for this purpose. The bill pro vides no bar for that type of employment.

Senator HART. I think that the Congress is fortunate that a ma of your integrity, and character, and experience is available to b given this assignment.

Senator ERVIN. He could be chairman of the election board of North Carolina and Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and North ar South Carolina.

Senator HART. I am sure any man you would pick would regard as an honor and a public obligation to perform that duty.

Senator ERVIN. That is correct, Senator.

Senator HART. I repeat, I think it is very fortunate that we have Civil Service Commission with a reputation which men like you hav and have had.

I notice our chairman is back. I should comment that I was one w sought to seat the Freedom Party delegation at our convention a ye ago. I would hope that the remarks of the chairman would not pr clude you from considering the society in Mississippi and elsewhere

only the proof that the high standards you have described to us were ot met by anybody.

Mr. MACY. That certainly was the intent of my response.

Senator ERVIN. I would like to state, Mr. Macy, that no questions I ave asked are intended to be a reflection on you or the Civil Service ommission. I have a very high opinion of you individually and offiially, also of the Civil Service Commission. But I have a very low pinion of a bill which would provide for sending carpetbaggers into y State to pass on the qualifications of North Carolina voters and lso to make a quasi-judicial decision.

Mr. MACY. I understand that, sir.

The CHAIRMAN (presiding). Do you expect to hire postmasters? Mr. MACY. No, sir. The feeling is that the postmasters' examing and selection system is such that it would not be desirable to utize postmasters. However, there are some employees in the post office ho are selected through the regular civil service examining system ho might very well be utilized in this part-time or short-term basis hat I was describing in response to Senator Hart's question. Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Macy, in your discussion about the kinds f people that might be appointed as examiners, you are not excluding he possibility that these might be people who are already under civil ervice, is that right?

Mr. MACY. No, sir, Senator Kennedy. The view is that in many stances, we would look to the present Federal employees for the erformance of this function.

Senator KENNEDY. That is not exclusive. You might have some ho were presently Federal employees and you might have some from e outside?

Mr. MACY. That is right. I would view the probability that there ould be a mixture of the two. As I indicated in my statement, it ould be necessary to tailor the composition of the examiner force, -pending upon the particular community and its voting records. Senator KENNEDY. Now, if you were to have someone who was ready a Federal employee, and you gave him the responsibility that ou have given under this act as far as extending your responsibiles as a Federal examiner and he were to fail to live up to those sponsibilities and his service was terminated, would he retain any ghts under civil service, and if so, what rights?

Mr. MACY. Yes, if an individual Federal employee were assigned ties as an examiner, the removal authority in this bill would only ply to the termination of his services as an examiner. It would -t affect his regular employment status.

Consequently, he would be returned in the event of termination— minating action to his regular employment, where he would conue to have all of the benefits of the civil service laws, the Veterans reference Act, and other protections.

Senator KENNEDY. You also mentioned the possibility of using puty examiners. Would they be subject to the same criteria or andards as far as their competency as examiners themselves? Mr. MACY. Yes, that is right. These would be subordinate examers who would be working in support of an examiner in a particuarea. We would apply the same qualifications and standards, quire that they meet the same performance standards.