Mr. WOLFE. I believe, Mr. Senator, that I answered that question when you propounded it to me when I was before you before. But nevertheless I will try to be responsive.

We believe that the railroad industry is the only industry in this Nation and perhaps anyplace else that conducts all of its business in a glass bowl, that any information concerning the financial condition of the railroads can be secured by the simple expedient of asking the Interstate Commerce Commission for the records.

Senator HARTKE. Miss Reporter, will you read the question to him as I asked it?

Senator PASTORE. You mean right now?

Senator HARTKE. Mr. Chairman, I cannot obtain an answer on this question. He says the information is there. I asked him whether he is willing to have a fair and complete disclosure of the financial conditions of the railroads made to Congress. This is in dispute in these hearings. And it has never been answered by anyone from this industry. I see no reason why it can't be answered.

I will say this: it gives evidence to me of something; that there must be something to hide. Is there?

Mr. WOLFE. No, sir.

Senator HARTKE. Then can you answer the question?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes, sir. I think it would be entirely unnecessary; and, furthermore, it does not provide an answer as to whether people who do not perform any work ought to be retained, whether we are profitable or unprofitable.

Senator HARTKE. I didn't ask you whether it was necessary or unnecessary. I just asked you whether the railroad industry was willing to make this disclosure.

Mr. WOLFE. If Congress calls upon the industry to make a disclosure, I assume the railroads will have to do it.

Now you ask if I am willing. My views one way or the other would not seem to be important. I say that all of the information is before you as members of this committee.

Senator HARTKE. Is there any reason why the Congress could not have this information directly made available to it? Is there any reason why the railroad industry, or you representing them, feel this should not be done?

Mr. WOLFE. Absolutely not, because we are required to do it by law, and we do it every month and every year.

Senator HARTKE. Mr. Wolfe, if the adoption of this resolution would require compulsion, as stated by Mr. Meany last night, do you think that this would imply that the public ownership should follow? Mr. WOLFE. No, sir. Not if the public had anything to say about it; I do not.

Senator HARTKE. Is it true that under this resolution that the right to strike on the part of labor would have to be given up?

Mr. WOLFE. Not in my opinion.

Senator HARTKE. Not during the 2-year period?

Mr. WOLFE. Oh, yes; during the 2-year period both would be bound by the interim orders.

Senator HARTKE. And this would require that there be no strike? Mr. WOLFE. And no shutdown and no changes in rules, even though to do so and it might be justified-the carriers could operate more economically. We are both subject to the same restrictions.

Senator HARTKE. Is there any precedent for a period as long as 2 years in which labor has ever been required to forgo their right to strike?

Mr. WOLFE. I do not know, one way or the other. But I think a reasonable answer would be "No"; at least to my knowledge.

Senator HARTKE. In your opinion is this resolution, which is before us, Senate Joint Resolution 102, is this the only solution which is acceptable to you?

Mr. WOLFE. Oh, no. Anything that will bring about a peaceful settlement of these issues, and thus protect all of the parties of interest, including the public, would be satisfactory to the carriers.

Senator HARTKE. Do you have any other solution to propose, other than the one which is before us?

Mr. WOLFE. No. We felt, and still feel, that if there had been a willingness to bargain on the part of the unions it would have been disposed of. Their unwillingness to recede from their position and accept any part of the recommendations of the investigating bodies, and the Secretary of Labor, and the President of the United States, had made a solution impossible.

Senator HARTKE. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more question? Senator PASTORE. All right, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Wolfe, the record shows that in 1960, I believe, there were about 780,000 employees of the railroads, and in 1962, 2 years later, that declined to about 700,000 total. Now, if we exclude the salaries of the presidents, vice presidents, the attorneys, and other executive officers, take that group of 780,000 employees in 1960, 700,000 in 1962, was the total labor cost of the railroads less in 1962, than it was in 1960.

Mr. WOLFE. May I look at the record here, if you please?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Surely.

Mr. WOLFE. It was more in 1960 than it was in 1962, but it was a considerable amount less in 1961 than in 1962.

Senator YARBOROUGH. In other words, the labor costs in 1962, of railroads, are less than the labor costs of 1960, 2 years previously. Mr. WOLFE. And more than in 1961.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The labor costs in 1962 of the railroads are less than in 1960 ?

Mr. WOLFE. That is correct.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Now, I don't mind you adding the other if you wish.

Mr. WOLFE. And more, as I stated, in 1962, than in 1961.
Senator YARBOROUGH. Well, 1961 was considerably less than 1960?
Mr. WOLFE. 1961 was considerably less than 1960; yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. In other words, each of those years, 1961, 1962, your total labor costs were less than the year 1960. Is that right? Mr. WOLFE. That is correct.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Now, back to your earlier statement, your lack of faith in the collective bargaining process. Were you here when Secretary of Labor Wirtz was testifying?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You heard his hope and faith that this might be settled, even while this committee was deliberating here? Did you hear those statements earlier?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes, I heard what the Secretary had to say and I have also read what he said or he must have said to the President.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I have no further questions.

Senator PASTORE. Thank you. Mr. Wolfe, I don't want to detain you much longer, but you have been meeting, your group has been meeting with the brotherhoods under the aegis of the Secretary of Labor, since we have been meeting at these hearings, is that correct? Mr. WOLF. No, sir; we have not.

Senator PASTORE. You have not met?

Mr. WOLFE. We have met with the Secretary of Labor and his assistant, and the Mediation Board, but there have been no

Senator PASTORE. Not in the presence of the other group?

Mr. WOLFE. Only for about 10 minutes, when the Secretary of Labor made a little talk to subcommittees of both groups. No negotiation, a sort of a peptalk.

Senator PASTORE. And that is about all that has happened?

Mr. WOLFE. We have met with the Secretary; we had a subcommittee talk with him for a couple of hours this afternoon, I met with him yesterday, for a couple of hours.

Senator PASTORE. Would you say that progress is being made? Mr. WOLFE. No, sir; I would not.

Senator PASTORE. Would you say that you are precisely where you stood before you appeared before this committee?

Mr. WOLFE. I think so far as the carriers' committee is concerned, after what transpired on the 26th, 27th, and 28th, we are further apart than we thought we were when these committee hearings began. Senator PASTORE. You mean the situation has deteriorated?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes; because we had heard the testimony of witnesses for the unions, to the effect that we were in some areas at least this far apart [indicating small space] and then when we found they were still standing on propositions they handed the Chairman of the National Mediation Board in June of 1962, and had not receded 1 inch from that position, in spite of the recommendations of the Mediation Board, we found that we were far worse off than we had thought.

Senator PASTORE. Now it has been testified here they made a proposal as far back, I think, as May of 1963, to the effect that they were willing to consider a formula for the disposition of not to exceed 5,500 jobs as against your rule of November 2, 1959, that accounted for 32,500 jobs. I raised the question as to whether or not there had been a counterproposal to that figure. Has there ever been a counterproposal?

Mr. WOLFE. There have been counterproposals in this manner, Mr. Chairman. As I stated earlier, ordinarily you don't make counterproposals, written proposals, until you think you have reached an agreement on principles. I think that is so elementary, I shouldn't go too far into it. But when we failed to reach an agreement, and by the way, on March 13, 1962, that was not in writing; it was a verbal discussion with Mr. Gilbert.

Senator PASTORE. You mean the 5,500?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes. That was simply an estimate he made to us. It was never presented to us in writing until May 22 of this year. That is a little over a month ago.

Now in the meantime, we had the Emergency Board recommendations and we took that as our proposal, as our counterproposal. Then

on July 5 of this year, the Secretary of Labor Wirtz made a written proposal to the parties and we took that as our proposal, as a counterproposal. That was in writing.

Senator PASTORE. Now what was Mr. Wirtz' proposal on that? Mr. WOLFE. His proposal, as he explained, was that the recommendations of Emergency Board 154 which, by the way, some of the witnesses for the unions seem to look upon at least in part with favor, for a period of 2 years; during that period there would be a joint committee that would study the results of any job abolishments, and things of that nature, and all during that time there would be discussions and negotiations. At the end of the 2-year period, with a record of experience, this joint committee would make recommendations.

If they couldn't agree, then a third party would be brought in and a solution would be reached. We did accept that.

Senator PASTORE. How many jobs did he suggest in that proposal? Mr. WOLFE. He made no

Senator PASTORE. He gave no figure?

Mr. WOLFE. No; only the recommendations of the Emergency Board, which would limit reductions to those who entered service after a reasonable date, those not permanently connected with the railroad, although they may have seniority, those who are on a part-time basis, whose main source of livelihood is outside of the industry and the third group would be those with less than 10 years of seniority, who would be subject only to attrition. They would always have a job, but the carriers would have the right to offer them comparable employment, but maintain the level of their earnings, up to 5 years.

Now over 10 years of seniority, subject only to arbitration, they would never lose their jobs.

Senator PASTORE. Is it impossible to state that in numbers?
Mr. WOLFE. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.

The first group, those hired after November 2, 1959, according to our records there would be about 3,290. Those employed on an irregular or part-time basis, who earn most of their living working some place else, about 5,564. Now that figure could be materially reduced because not all people who are laid off actually respond to a call to return to service.

Senator PASTORE. So the figure you have given is in the neighborhood of 8,854.

Mr. WOLFE. You are correct, Mr. Chairman.

Senator PASTFRE. That would be the top figure and it would be below that?

Mr. WOLFE. Yes; that is correct.

Senator PASTORE. Any further questions?

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman, of this 8,000-plus, how many would be entitled to severance pay, if any?

Mr. WOLFE. It is 5,564. Some of them would be entitled to-I guess all of them would be.

Senator PROUTY. Thank you.

Senator PASTORE. Thank you, Mr. Wolfe.

Now I promised last evening that we would give labor an opportunity, that is the brotherhoods, an opportunity for surrebuttal. And I would hope that the surrebuttal will not exceed the period of 21⁄2 hours. But if it becomes necessary to extend it, we can do it.

We intend to meet at 1 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. The Senate is not in session tomorrow, so it means we can meet in the afternoon, rather than wait for the evening. It will be in room 5110.

Now I think I should say to the people interested in this cause that it is the intention of the chairman to bring the hearings to a close tomorrow afternoon after we hear from labor. And if there is any further testimony or any further presentation to be made, the record will be kept open until 5 o'clock on Monday, which is August 5; and that on August 8, which is Thursday, after the members of this committee have had an opportunity to study the record, at 10 o'clock in the morning, the committee will start sitting in executive session. Thank you very much.

A suggestion was made and accepted that we make it 1:30 tomorrow. Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Wolfe, in my questioning on the average rate of pay reduction, you referred me to Document No. 5 in the appendix, and I find myself unable to understand exactly how that would apply. I wonder if you could simplify it down to the average rate of pay reductions of those who will have the shortened runs and the various wage changes? For the record, before we close it.

Senator PASTORE. Could you do that for the record?

Give it in terms that has been presented here by Mr. Homer, so that you can get the contrast, if there is a contrast.

I want to thank again all of the witnesses for coming. We hope to conclude these hearings tomorrow afternoon. Until then, I bid you good night.

(Whereupon, at 10:15 p.m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene on Thursday, August 1, 1963.)