H. OF R.] Foreign Intercourse. [FEBRUARY, 1798. tendency to make one branch of the Government depend on the other. tioned by the mover of this amendment, he was persuaded he only meant to introduce the subject on general ground. The idea, as he understood This spirit of grasping at wealth and power him, was, that all nations and societies were had been so great, that it had even attached itself liable to depart from original principles, to cor- to religious opinions. When the Christian relirupt their Governments, and in the end to sub-gion was first preached, it was of a democratic vert them; and that, in this country, we were spirit; and afterwards it became aristocratic, and subject to an improper connexion of the different then monarchic. When, therefore, this lust after departments. That it was necessary to guard power had been so general, it could not be said against this, if an appearance of such a connexion that this country was not liable to the same vices should at any time appear. He thought this was and errors. so obvious that it would be acknowledged by every one that we were equally liable with other nations to this corruption. With respect to what had been said respecting appointments to office being confined to men of particular sentiments, it had been acknowledged by some gentlemen to have been observed in the choice of men in the diplomatic corps; but others had acknowledged that the regulation was a general one. There This consideration was also worthy of attention. Men of the best private character had been supporters of these corrupt systems. It seemed, therefore, as if there should be some line of distinction between private character and political conduct. Though a man may possess the greatest private integrity, he may still support such principles as may lead to arbitrary power. could be no doubt that those persons who mainWas it not evident, Mr. H. asked, that in other tained the divine right of Kings were many of countries, original principles of Government were them men of the greatest integrity; but their docdeparted from? That there was an incessant trines were not the less mischievous on that acdesire after wealth, honor, and power? He never count. In the same way it might be reasoned heard of a Monarchy which did not suppose itself with respect to the United States. Men may be under the necessity of creating a sort of Govern-induced to support opinions which have a tendency ment party, who had the disposal of large sums of to subvert the Government, by placing all power money, which they could distribute among per- in the hands of the Executive, and make the sons who were subservient to their purposes. He Government a sort of four years' monarchy. Yet, believed this disposition had prevailed in all these men may be men of the greatest integrity, ages of the world, and had been the cause of and even patriotic, according to their views of most of the wars and calamities which had rava- patriotism; but if others believe their opinions ged the earth. It must be evident to every one have this tendency, it is their duty to represent that peace, independence, and equality, must con- them to the people of the United States, leaving stitute the happiness of every country; but it was them to decide the point. notorious that the leading men in most countries had been opposed to these, for their own ends. Beccaria, he said, in his Essay on Crimes and Punishments, had laid it down as a certain principle, that there were in every society such a class of men. In England, perhaps, this was more evident than in any other nation. A set of men appeared early in that country to render the Executive power a Government of despotism. The doctrines of passive obedience and the divine right of Kings, continued to be asserted for one whole reign. After the Revolution, the funding system was set on foot, which bound men to the Executive by interest; in fact, persons were hired to support a certain system of measures. It must appear evident that the great cause of keeping that country continually engaged in war, had been the host of placemen and pensioners contained in the two Houses of Parliament, who were always inclined to support measures in which they found the greatest interest. The Treasury must be considered as the head of the body politic; and whatever party got into power, they pursued the same course-a course which had now brought that nation to the verge of bankruptcy and ruin. If this was the constant course in other countries, was not this country, he asked, equally liable to the same evils? He believed it was. He did not say that the evil had gone far; but he thought it was proper that we should be on our guard against any doctrine which may have a Mr. H. concluded by observing, he had heard no reason suggested for a Minister at Berlin; nor could he see any use for one at the Hague. He was of opinion that Vienna would be a more fit place for the residence of a Minister than Berlin. We have no commerce with that country; and if we had any wish to intermeddle in the subject of the balance of power in Europe, we might as well send embassies to the Emperors of Germany and Russia. But he believed we had no business with this balance or power. He thought it was possible so to manage our affairs as to have nothing to do with any of them. Nor did he think we had anything to fear on the subject of invasion; if there was any danger, it must be from England, by way of Canada. Besides, if we were to have any serious difference with France, he knew of no use our Ambassadors could be of. It might, perhaps, be necessary to have Ambassadors at London, Paris, and perhaps Spain and Portugal; if others were necessary at any time, special agents could be sent. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be agreed to, as he thought it was a proper time to make a retrenchment in the expenses of this department of Government; and, however small the saving might seem, it was of consequence to make every saving possible, which he wished to be applied to the discharge of the public debt. Mr. WILLIAMS, of New York, said, that though the present subject had already taken up much time, as he considered the question of importance; and, as its decision was connected with a Constitutional question, he must be permitted to make a few observations upon it. When the amendment was first introduced, he did not see the object to which it led so distinctly as he now saw it. If the object of the gentleman from Virginia had been to bring back the foreign intercourse to the same situation in which it stood in 1796, he would have passed over the first section of the bill and gone on to the third, because the first is the same as that of the bill passed in 1790. But his object had since appeared to be a total annihilation of our foreign intercourse. He wished to do this, he said, to save expense; but the only Constitutional ground upon which the House could interfere in this business, was as it related to salaries; if these had been found too high, he should have no objection to lower them. If the gentleman had thought that two years was too long a time to enact this law, he might have moved an alteration in that respect; but he could not consent to doing away the intercourse altogether, as it would not only be rendering our affairs abroad totally inactive, but be arrogating to ourselves a power which the Constitution had placed in another department. This was the same Constitutional question, in a different garb, that was agitated six or seven weeks on the British Treaty, and which had also occupied three weeks of the last session; so that, instead of saving any expense, this debate alone would cost more than the foreign Ministers that gentlemen wished to dispense with. Besides, the present situation of things was ill calculated for the introduction of such a question, which served only to produce a warmth which tended to obstruct the business of the House. He complained that the gentleman from Georgia had, in his warmth, drawn conclusions from the President's Speech in the year 1790, which could not be maintained. [Mr. W. read the extract alluded to.] The same gentleman had remarked, that he was for doing away the hostility which existed between the different departments of Government; but, Mr. W. asked, what harmony could exist if the President appointed an officer, the Senate concurred in the choice, and that House refused to appropriate for his salary? If this check was to be exercised, it would also be acted upon in the Senate, and might give them the power, by lowering the pay of members, to prevent any but men of property from accepting of seats in that House. Six shillings a day were only allowed to the members of the House of Commons in England, and, he asked, if the Senate should reduce, by their check. the pay of members to that sum, whether any man of moderate circumstances could attend the duty of that House? This, then, said he, would prevent the mediocrity from sending the members of their choice, as no one could attend except those whose private fortunes would admit of it, and this would cause our Representatives to be the same as the House of Commons, and an aristocracy would be produced. 5th CoN.-35 [H. of R. When the Executive informed the House, seven or eight months ago, that he was about to renew treaties with Sweden and Prussia, money was appropriated for a Minister for that purpose without opposition; but it was said he was now to be recalled. He would suppose that one of the gentlemen who advocated this amendment had been chosen on this embassy, and he had arranged his business at home, and taken his station abroad, would he have liked to have been thus recalled? No; he would have said Government was unstable, and not to be depended upon. But it was said by the proposer of the amendment that he was devoted to a republican Government; but, to use the language of the good book, "by their works ye shall know them." If gentlemen can produce proofs of their attachment to the republican cause, they will be credited. But the gentleman from Virginia had talked of "feeble minorities" governing, which was not consonant to a republican system. The minority he considered as a spark of fire, which, if not put out, might consume the whole fabric. But the yeomanry of the country, who were the most virtuous and stable men in the community, had been the only check on this subject; it was they who had, by their adherence to the support of good order, saved the Government from ruin. They are not like the inhabitants of large cities, whỏ are as changeable as the wind. Much had been said about the political sentiments of the Executive, and of his choosing officers of the same opinion with himself. He was perfectly justified in doing this to a certain degree, and that he did not attend to these circumstances in all these appointments was evident from one which had taken place in a department of considerable trust during the present session; but that all the heads of departments and the diplomatic corps should agree in political opinion with him is certainly proper, in order to carry on the business of Government with harmony; otherwise, said he, there would be a continual jarring, and the good book says, "a house divided against itself cannot stand." His colleague (Mr. HAVENS) had just now said, if the opinion, which the opposers of this amendment held, prevailed, everything must be done according to the will of the Executive. If he had interfered with their Legislative business, said Mr. W., this observation might have been just. If the Executive wanted a person to regulate our commerce in foreign countries, would he choose one who had always been opposed to commerce of every kind? Such a choice would be wholly inconsistent. The conduct of the President, in this respect, was similar to what was adopted every day in that House in the appointment of committees, who were always chosen from men who were supposed to be acquainted with the business on which they were to act. Mr. W. denied that an appointment to office produced any influence, as he knew from what had taken place in his own State, the Governor of which was similarly circumstanced in that respect with the President of the United States. Where one person was served, twenty were disappointed, and he knew that the Governor of his State had nearly lost his election from the offence he had given in the election of a sheriff in the year 1789. But gentlemen had said that we had no occasion for Ministers to foreign Courts; that we ought to be considered merely as buyers and venders of European manufactures. If this were true, no Minister would be wanted. Were we, then, to do nothing with our surplus agricultural produce, with our fish, &c.? When he thought on this subject, he was surprised at the conduct of some of the representatives of large cities. As he was a representative of farmers, he might say that no foreign Minister was necessary; but when he reflected that by giving encouragement to commerce, a competition was produced in the market which enhanced the price of produce, he saw the propriety of that encouragement; because, when the farmers brought their produce to market for sale, the greater the competition between our merchants and foreign merchants, the greater chance of obtaining a ready sale and a higher price. But it was said the President might abuse the power that was placed in him; but this was to suppose the people had been so foolish as to elect a man to this office who was unfit to be trusted. Indeed, all the observations of gentlemen on this head were founded on a supposition that the President and Senate had views and interests different from those of their constituents. If the President did act contrary to his duty, he was liable to impeachment; and if the Constitution wanted amending, it might be amended. Indeed, amendments had been proposed in the Legislature of Virginia and negatived, but he saw the proposition was again renewed, proposing to alter the Constitution with respect to the treaty-making power, agreeably to the sentiments of the representatives from that quarter; which was a tacit acknowledgment that the Constitution does not support those opinions at present. Let us, said he, be contented with the powers given us by the people-the will of the people should be his guide; and when the people thought proper to alter the Constitution, he would be sati-fied; but he would not take power from the people which they thought proper to withhold. [FEBRUARY, 1798. and in the way he thought best. With respect to the appointment to office, when the General Convention met for settling the Constitution, they had considerable difficulty in this respect; but as it had been agreed that the small States should be represented in the Senate by as many members as the large States, and retain their sovereignty, it was thought the power of appointing to office, and the power to make treaties, would be best lodged there. The small States having had this indulgence, could never agree to concede the doctrine now contended for, as to the power of the House of Representatives, because it would be doing away that solemn compact entered into between the large and small States at the forming the present Constitution. Besides, if this doctrine was adopted, the Government could not operate at all. Suppose the foreign intercourse was done away, and after the rising of the present session, the Directory of France should so far come to their senses as to be willing to do us justice, by making restitution for the spoliations committed on our commerce, and paying our citizens what they had promised them, a new treaty would be necessary for our present treaty is done away if we choose that it should be so, as they have broken it; as, by the law of nations, if a treaty is entered into between two nations, and one breaks any part thereof, the other is not bound unless it chooses. But the President would be unable to appoint a Minister until an appropriation was made, and Congress must be called together for the purpose of making it; and if a majority of that House were opposed to such a treaty, the President could not negotiate it. Thus the principles of the Constitution would be changed, and rendered inactive. The objection which he now made had been realized in the State of New York. The year after the Constitution was adopted, two members were to be sent to the Senate of the United States, when, from a difference of opinion between the two branches of the Legislature of that State, as to the men to be elected, no choice was made until a new election of the Legislature took place, when both branches being of the same political opinion, the Senators were appointed. Besides, this mode would create an enormous expense, because, in every case where a Minister was wanted, the whole Congress must be called together, and But it was said, our commerce produced a par- when so called, a majority of the House of Repre tiality for Great Britain. If this were so, what sentatives might not agree that a treaty was ne then? If our merchants choose to go to Great cessary, and refuse an appropriation, or they Britain in preference to other countries, ought the might withhold an appropriation, unless the PreLegislature to prevent them? If they were par-sident would nominate such a person as the matial to Great Britain, he supposed it was because they found it their interest to go there. The Virginians, two years ago. sold their horses to Great Britain, because they gave them a good price for them, and the members in that House were dressed from top to toe in English manufactures, because they believed them better than any other; and as the Virginians were permitted to sell their horses at the best market, he hoped that he, as a farmer, might be permitted to sell the produce of his farm where he could get the most for it, jority thought proper. Besides, four States would rule the other twelve, because the States of Virginia. North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts, had a majority of members. Again, said Mr. W., from the observations of the gentlemen in favor of the amendment, they themselves would not agree to any one object, for one wanted a M ister, and of such a grade, to this, and the other to that Court, and another quite different. Though much had been said relative to our late Minister at Paris, he should not have touched upon it, but from what had fallen from the gentleman from Virginia. who had said that peace might have been secured to this country, but that it had been cast from us by sacrificing that Minister. If he were sacrificed, he sacrificed himself. If he could not have done the business in which he was to be employed in an acceptable way to Government, he ought to have refused the mission, as it was said another gentleman had done. He believed that the Executive, in the whole of the business with France, had acted in the most determined manner to preserve our neutrality, and at the same time our friendship with the French nation. But if they took a view of the conduct of the agents of the French Government which had been sent here, it would be matter of surprise that we had been able to keep out of war. The Government and people of the United States had assisted France in every way they could, though they were frequently charged with ingratitude to that country. Mr. W. asked when gentlemen spoke of the party which supported the Executive, whether they did not think the party raised against him by means of these French agents and their friends had not been fifty times stronger than that occasioned by the funding system and the return of disaffected persons during our Revolution? He believed they did. Let gentlemen attend to what the sacrificed Minister had done whilst in Paris, or rather to what he had not done. Had any compensation been obtained for injuries done to our commerce long before the British Treaty was formed; or, for the mischiefs done at Bourdeaux in 1793 and 1794? What had been done to redress the singular and forced sales of cargoes for non-performance of contracts, &c.? He had heard nothing that he had done to redress these grievances. But the gentleman from Virginia had said, that he was sorry his friend had published the communications which had passed between him and their Government. Mr. W. believed that the gentleman alluded to, and his friends, would have reason to be sorry that this book had been published. That publication evidently showed that he had gone farther than he was empowered to do. However, the book and the remarks made and to be made thereon were before the people; they are the tribunal; with them he would leave it, as they were the proper judges, and would judge rightly. [H. OF R. duct of our Minister at London. This gentleman, he said, had been of the greatest possible advantage to this country. When any of the commercial agents applied to him, instead of writing to the Judge Advocate General a diplomatic letter, he waited himself upon the Judge; and, in one decision alone, he had obtained for damages and freight, for one house in this city, £2,750 sterling. He had also obtained the passing of a law to indemnify neutral claims of spoliation, and upwards of $3,500,000 were appropriated for that purpose. And seeing that the Court of Admiralty there was inclined to procrastinate our business, he had obtained by his perseverance a promise that the Court would sit again in November last. So that it may be fairly said, that our Minister in London has been the means of saving to the citizens of this country more than all the diplomatic expense to which it had been put; and though this money does not immediately go into the Treasury, yet it is the means of enriching our country. Mr. W. denied that Consuls do the business of Ministers, as nothing was paid them for their services. He also took a view of the large sums paid to British Consuls at their factories in foreign countries; one Consul, said he, at Elsinore, had more income than all our foreign Ministers. Besides, Consuls must dance attendance at foreign Courts, and they cannot do this unless they are paid; and at some Courts they would not be permitted to do business-and, if they were, Ministers would do more at one visit than fifty visits of Consuls; therefore, there could be no saving of expense, but greater delays occasioned, and, in the end, the business would not be done. But it had been said that the Executive had greatly raised his influence by the law funding the domestic debt of the United States. This act passed the 4th of August, 1790, when nine-tenths of the paper allowed to be funded was out of the hands of original owners; so that, if it occasioned any speculation, it was a speculation upon speculators. If the Executive had meant to have increased his influence by this measure, he would have recommended the measure when this species of property was in the hands of a number, rather than when engrossed by a few. Besides, those called speculators are about equally divided for and against the Executive. He knew that much had been said about this and other subjects in Congress about that time, which the people called "manoeuvering." Much was said about the "Penobscot expedition," the "South Carolina frigate," the temporary and permanent "seat of Government," &c. The effect of which, to the State of New York, had been a loss of the seat of Government, and a supposed heavy debt. With all which, however, he knew nothing that the Executive had to do in the business; but he knew the debt was an unjust charge against the State of New York, and he hoped would never again be called for. The next class which had been spoken of as increasing the influence of the Executive was the disaffected in the cause of the ReHaving touched upon the conduct of our Min-volution-those who were attached to the Govister at Paris, he would contrast with it the con- ernment under which they lived, and refused to The gentleman from Virginia had determined to preach to the people, but the people ought to hear both sides of the question, and if he preached on one side, the other ought not to be withheld from them. This preaching was commenced two years ago, and gentlemen had preached themselves from a majority of 62 to 37 (which they had in calling for papers from the President in respect to the British Treaty) to a majority of 53 to 45 against them, which was the division at the commencement of the last session, on a vote in answer to the President's Speech, approving of his conduct. This change had been produced by the election which had taken place in the meantime. H. OF R.] Foreign Intercourse. [FEBRUARY, 1798. Spain into a war, by its firmness of conduct; but this had not been the case, the Executive had spoken a firm American language, and they had heard it; and, if the same tone had been observed toward France, that country must long since have heard it. But the cry of "the people are with us" had done the mischief. join in opposing it. This was a high trait in their character, and they yet preserved it; and they are now firmly attached to the present Government. These, then, were the supporters of Government-he wished to know who were its opposers? When the Government first went into execution, the people were nearly divided for and against it. Persons, however, crowded from every quarter to Mr. W. said, he was informed, and believed it be appointed to office under it; so that ten appli- to be true, that a company of persons had fitted cations were made for one office, and those per-out four privateers, which had captured sixty-one sons who had been disappointed had ever since of our vessels, and only three of the English. By remained the opposers of Government, and he these means, the honest merchant, who would doubted not the present amendment was produced not be seen in carrying contraband goods, had by the same cause. been ruined, and innumerable failures had been Soon after this, followed the French Revolu- the consequence. The farmers had credited the tion, when our citizens employed in the carrying merchants with their produce, until the return trade brought the rich produce of the island of St. cargo arrived; but, alas! it had been captured; so Domingo into this country; but as the French that in numerous instances the farmer had lost would not admit of this in time of peace, the all, which by the sweat of the brow had been English now disputed that right, and because our raised, in order to fulfil his contracts. These Executive had refused to interfere, but was deter-failures had filled the courts of law with suits for mined to preserve our neutrality, it had raised up breaches of contracts, and been the ruin of numa powerful party against him. At the commence-bers, so that our prisons are filled with debtors, ment of the Government, three-fourths of the inhabitants of the large cities were in favor of the new Government; and those of the country, nearly in the same proportion against it. But after the revolution which he had mentioned had taken place, the inhabitants of the large commercial cities became opposed to the Executive; and when the yeomanry saw this, and that it was the object of the Executive to preserve the peace of the country, they became united in its support. Their love for order and liberty, religious as well as civil, made them the firm supporters of it, under the protecting hand of Providence. But the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) had declared, "The people are with us." This and the "feeble minorities" was the source, he believed, from whence sprung all our difficulties. Who told the Freneh nation in 1793 that the people of this country were "with them?" Who encouraged the Ministers of France in this country to make their appeals to the people? Were these the friends and supporters of Government? If the Ministers of this country had acted in France as those of that country had acted here, would they not have been long since guillotined, and that without the shadow of a trial? And would those Ministers ever have acted as they did, if they had not known there was a party in this country who approved of their measures? The British, observing this favorable disposition of the people of this country towards France, determined to take time by the forelock, and issued the order which had been so much complained of for capturing our vessels; so that this country had lost five or six millions of dollars from the cry of "feeble minorities," and "the people are with us." But when the English saw that the Executive was firm, and could not be driven from its neutrality, but would go to war with them unless they desisted, they forebore, and made overtures for compensating the injuries they had done us, and are now making payments therefor. It had been said that the Executive was driving and the money gone out of the country. The "feeble minorities," and "the people are with us," have been the reason why the resources of our country were not called for seven or eight years ago; and, if called for then, our debt might have been paid, and luxury and dissipation prevented, which have outrun our population. The yeomanry of this country, Mr. W. said wished the French nation success in the establishment of their Government; they wished to be at peace with them and all the world, and they would be heavily drawn into a war with any country. The gentleman who brought forward this amendment had concluded his observations with what he was glad to hear-that, if there was a necessity, he would turn out in defence of his country. He hoped every true American would do so. But he did not believe any nation would have the hardihood to attack us. We had a million of men, who, possessed of the spirit of 1776, would come down like a torrent against any attack which might be made upon the country. The retrenchment of our expenses was certainly a desirable object; but the support of our Government, and the maintenance of its rights and privileges, were of still higher importance. Let us reason together, and act as guardians of the people ought to do. Let us coolly and deliberately reflect on our situation as a nation, and forget any misunderstanding which we have allowed to harbor in our breast. When party distractions are wrought to an extreme height, when jealousies and suspicions universally pervade not only ourselves but the community, however interesting the subject, however necessary the duty, it will be a difficult task to arrest either our own or the public attention by an impartial inquiry into the true interests of the country; for, when the mind is heated, it is not in a state to listen to the dictates of reason. And when we shall have traced the wisdom which directed, the firmness which effected, the Revolution, and seen that we |